178 | Unlocking Podcast Growth Secrets with Kevin Chemidlin of Grow the Show

[00:00:00] Do you want to grow your podcast, keep listeners hooked, and finally break through that noise? Well, stick around. This episode is packed with strategies you need to succeed.

[00:00:17] Sound matters. Be heard.

[00:00:20] Welcome to the podcast where you get exclusive behind-the-scenes tips to make your own show sound truly spectacular.

[00:00:26] This is Podtastic Audio.

[00:00:32] What's happening? How are you doing today?

[00:00:36] Thank you so much for being here. I am Chris and yeah, this is Podtastic Audio.

[00:00:42] This show was designed and created to help you, the podcaster you, make an amazing show for your audience.

[00:00:50] And one amazing tool to help you make that happen is Riverside.fm.

[00:00:55] Today's episode is brought to you by Riverside, the platform that I trust to make Podtastic Audio sound, well, Podtastic.

[00:01:05] And guess what? The guest on this episode today was recorded entirely using Riverside.

[00:01:12] That's right. Studio quality audio and video, no matter where they are, all thanks to Riverside.

[00:01:19] With their brand new AI-enhanced one-click video editor, editing has never been easier.

[00:01:26] You can remove silences, add captions, and create shareable clips in seconds.

[00:01:32] It's like magic.

[00:01:33] Plus, the multitrack editor lets you fine-tune every single detail from the volume adjustments to splitting timelines.

[00:01:42] Now, whether you are a seasoned podcaster or just starting out, Riverside.fm has tools to take your show to the next level.

[00:01:51] And don't forget to use my exclusive promo code, PODtastic, for a 15% off any single paid plan.

[00:02:00] Trust me, your podcast deserves Riverside.

[00:02:05] Recently, on social media, I put out these quick little social media polls asking you, the podcaster,

[00:02:13] what are the things that you struggle with with creating a podcast?

[00:02:18] And overall, the majority of people have said that growing the audience and growing the listener base

[00:02:25] seems to be the biggest thing people struggle with.

[00:02:29] It's not microphone technique.

[00:02:31] It's not how to record.

[00:02:32] It's how to physically grow my show.

[00:02:35] Well, today, we've got an episode that is entirely packed with game-changing insights about growing your show.

[00:02:43] If you're ever wondering how to grow your podcast, attract more listeners, or even make some money doing what you love,

[00:02:50] then buckle up because this one's for you.

[00:02:53] Today, I am joined by none other than Kevin Schmidlin, the brilliant mind behind Grow the Show.

[00:03:01] Kevin has helped countless podcasters transform their shows into powerhouse productions,

[00:03:06] and today, he's sharing his proven strategies with us.

[00:03:11] On this episode, we're covering why most podcasters think they have a growth problem,

[00:03:17] but it's something else entirely.

[00:03:19] I wonder what that is.

[00:03:21] How to leverage social media algorithms and collaborations to boost your podcast.

[00:03:28] Kevin's ladder framework for creating sticky content that keeps your listeners coming back,

[00:03:35] although wouldn't that be nice?

[00:03:36] And how to make your podcast work for you, whether it's just for fun or to make a living.

[00:03:45] And like most podcasters that have a podcast about podcasting, it didn't always start that way.

[00:03:52] Kevin's original show was called Philly Who,

[00:03:55] so I want to know what made him decide to make the jump from that podcast into his current podcast.

[00:04:03] Yeah, so I think a lot of us underwent some life trajectory changes when COVID hit.

[00:04:10] I don't know if I can speak for everyone, but basically, 2018 and 2019, I did Philly Who.

[00:04:16] For 2019, I did Philly Who full-time.

[00:04:18] 2018 was when I launched the show, was a full-time creator, quote-unquote, in 2019.

[00:04:22] I hadn't even heard that term yet at the time, but that's what it was.

[00:04:25] And then in 2020, when COVID happened and everything got shut down, I'm in Philly,

[00:04:33] so the city got completely shut down and all of my interviews for my Philly show got canceled.

[00:04:37] Because it was also just like a weird time to interview somebody about their success story

[00:04:41] when nobody knew what was going on at the time.

[00:04:43] Now, were these in-person interviews?

[00:04:45] They were, yes.

[00:04:46] I had never done a remote interview up until this point.

[00:04:49] So all my interviews got canceled, and I had some podcast consulting and editing work that stuck around

[00:04:57] that I was able to use to pay my bills.

[00:05:00] But for like two or three months, I kind of had nothing to do because my show wasn't being produced.

[00:05:05] So I got in touch with a bunch.

[00:05:09] I had gotten to know a bunch of podcasters over the course of my first two years as a podcaster.

[00:05:16] And so I started reaching out to a bunch and just saying,

[00:05:18] hey, like I'm looking to understand where you're at.

[00:05:21] I had an idea that I could probably help other podcasters because I take my show past six figures in revenue

[00:05:27] just in its second year.

[00:05:28] Wow, that's great.

[00:05:29] And so I was like, yeah, thanks, man.

[00:05:30] It was, I mean, looking back, it was, I very much stumbled into it.

[00:05:34] But I knew like I had a bunch of podcasters reaching out to me asking

[00:05:38] if I could answer questions about what I did with the Philly show.

[00:05:42] So I don't know.

[00:05:43] There was like a month, I want to say like April or May or 2020.

[00:05:45] I got on like 30 Zoom calls with different podcasters of all shapes and sizes.

[00:05:50] Podcasters who are indie, some of them were like working for big media companies,

[00:05:55] for shows that you've heard of.

[00:05:56] Some of them were like startups that had podcasts.

[00:05:59] And across the board, all 30 conversations, every single person was like,

[00:06:04] how do I grow this thing?

[00:06:05] And how the heck do I monetize it?

[00:06:07] And so by the 30th time I heard that, I was like,

[00:06:09] there seems to be a common set of problems here that I think I could help solve.

[00:06:14] So like I said, with the Philly show just on hold indefinitely,

[00:06:20] I started helping podcasters individually and growtheshow.com was available.

[00:06:27] So I was like, why don't I give this thing a shot?

[00:06:30] And that was when Grow the Show was born almost five years ago.

[00:06:33] That was just during the pandemic when this all went down, like middle of it all.

[00:06:36] That's right.

[00:06:37] Oh, in the throes.

[00:06:38] When everybody was locked down.

[00:06:39] I think a lot of people, they were locked down, yeah.

[00:06:42] And they had no other thing to really do other than make a podcast.

[00:06:46] And that's when you saw a big surge of these podcasts hit the market.

[00:06:50] I think a lot of those funsy pop-up podcasts are gone, I think, by now.

[00:06:55] Oh, for sure.

[00:06:56] I mean, there's some that are still around,

[00:06:58] but I just see in the communities and the groups and social media, things like that.

[00:07:02] I just see a lot of them falling off.

[00:07:03] And I mean, it was fun.

[00:07:06] It's a fun hobby.

[00:07:07] And I guess if you're bored and you're just watching Tiger King,

[00:07:09] whatever you're doing at home, eating chips or whatever.

[00:07:12] Yeah.

[00:07:13] So you help out these podcasters that reached out to you.

[00:07:16] Same thing here.

[00:07:16] That's why Podtastic Audio started because people were asking me questions about my other

[00:07:21] show I was doing.

[00:07:22] And they're asking me, how do you make it sound so great?

[00:07:24] All this technical stuff.

[00:07:26] And I'm like, well, I don't have a technical background and I don't have a lot of technical

[00:07:30] gear.

[00:07:31] I've got simple stuff.

[00:07:32] So what are you using over there?

[00:07:34] What do you got?

[00:07:34] Because I'm using basic stuff and I sound great.

[00:07:36] Why do you sound like crap?

[00:07:37] I don't know.

[00:07:37] So that's kind of where the show started.

[00:07:39] But that's great that you help people out and you help podcasters out and new podcasters

[00:07:44] out.

[00:07:44] So what are some of the common things they would ask you back then?

[00:07:48] I mean, it's the same thing I get asked today, which is how do I get more listeners?

[00:07:53] How do I monetize?

[00:07:54] Those are the two questions that always, always folks lead with.

[00:07:58] And what I have found is that most shows, their growth strategy and their monetization

[00:08:03] strategy.

[00:08:04] I mean, a lot of them don't have a monetization strategy yet.

[00:08:06] But for most shows, most of them think that they have a growth problem.

[00:08:11] But they actually have other issues that are hindering growth.

[00:08:15] And like I said, that is just hands down.

[00:08:17] Anytime I meet a podcaster, big or small for the first time, that's the question I get

[00:08:20] asked.

[00:08:20] And in fact, you know, the podcast industry, I don't know if you've experienced this,

[00:08:24] but the whole industry downloads are down industry-wide.

[00:08:28] Across the board, we're saying, right?

[00:08:29] Everywhere.

[00:08:30] Across the board.

[00:08:30] Across the board.

[00:08:31] Yep.

[00:08:31] And so I actually just did a-

[00:08:32] But how much do you think percentage-wise?

[00:08:34] Like if you say a percentage down-wise?

[00:08:36] It depends on a couple things.

[00:08:38] So I don't have like a podcast listenership is down X percent.

[00:08:41] It depends very much on how often the show publishes and also how old the show is.

[00:08:47] So shows that have a much bigger back catalog tend to be, have been much more affected.

[00:08:54] And also shows that publish more often have been more affected than shows that have less

[00:08:59] of the catalog.

[00:09:01] Well, a huge, huge catalyst, first of all, is in October of last year, Apple Podcasts

[00:09:06] made an update to their algorithm for how the app decides what episodes should be downloaded

[00:09:13] to people's phones.

[00:09:14] So the shows that published a lot and the shows that had a huge back catalog, once that update

[00:09:20] went into effect, a bunch of phones downloaded far fewer episodes than previously.

[00:09:28] So, you know, those shows, which a lot of those shows are monetized with ad revenue by

[00:09:32] how many downloads that they get, they were no longer getting a bunch of downloads that

[00:09:37] were not actually being listened to, if that makes sense.

[00:09:39] So people's phones were downloading these episodes from the back catalog or automatically

[00:09:43] downloading these daily episodes and these people were never listening to them, but they

[00:09:48] were still getting our credit for a download.

[00:09:49] So Apple kind of fixed, which is kind of a problem.

[00:09:52] Like Apple fixed this.

[00:09:53] Yeah, but I would rather have a listen than an actual download that never gets listened.

[00:09:58] I'd rather have someone actually listen to the episode.

[00:10:00] Exactly.

[00:10:01] You know, so in a way it's actually a good thing because people are actually really truly

[00:10:06] listening.

[00:10:06] Those downloads mean listens, kind of, right?

[00:10:11] They, more so now than before, they mean listens.

[00:10:15] They still don't fully, right?

[00:10:16] But yeah, the bigger shows that I spoke to, the ones who have done well, have done better

[00:10:22] are the ones who said that.

[00:10:23] They're like, you know, it really sucks that our downloads are down, but honestly, I would

[00:10:26] rather have a more accurate picture.

[00:10:27] There's other shows that don't care.

[00:10:29] They just want higher downloads and they're still upset.

[00:10:32] But that was a major blow to the podcasting industry.

[00:10:35] And then there's just one other thing that I, that this is my own theory as to why listenership

[00:10:39] is down.

[00:10:40] I think like there is, if we look at our screen time on our phones, that our screen time keeps

[00:10:46] going up.

[00:10:47] Everybody's spending more and more and more time on their phones.

[00:10:50] But the thing is they're spending more and more time looking at their phones, reading

[00:10:53] stuff on social media and watching videos on social media and on YouTube.

[00:10:57] So our time looking at stuff has gone up.

[00:11:01] Well, people's time listening to stuff hasn't really changed as much because it's a very

[00:11:06] routine medium.

[00:11:07] Podcast listeners listen while they are commuting or working out or it's a thing in their weekly

[00:11:12] routine that doesn't really, they're not working out more.

[00:11:16] They're not commuting more.

[00:11:17] If anything, they're commuting less.

[00:11:18] So there's like, there's not as much growth in the amount of time people are spending consuming

[00:11:25] podcasts as compared to video and text-based social media and media, right?

[00:11:31] So my theory is there's more competition in terms of the quality of podcasts that are

[00:11:37] available, but the amount of listen minutes total has not changed.

[00:11:43] So it's more difficult now, I think, to get a listener and keep them than it was previously.

[00:11:49] Oh, that's interesting.

[00:11:51] I think also the fact that there's a, I mean, obviously 2020 caused a big surge of podcasts

[00:11:57] to the market.

[00:11:58] So I know that if you had a podcast back in 2010, you probably, you know, it was easy

[00:12:03] to get listeners because there's only a small number of, you know, of channels.

[00:12:09] Same thing with YouTube too.

[00:12:10] If you got in YouTube back in 2006 or whatever, five, whatever it was, I'm sure, you know,

[00:12:14] it was easier to get views on something over there too.

[00:12:17] Do you think the market is a little too saturated?

[00:12:19] Is that the problem with some people are saying?

[00:12:21] I don't think it's saturated because everybody says that, right?

[00:12:24] Like there's like, oh my gosh, there's now almost 4 million podcasts available on Apple

[00:12:29] Podcasts.

[00:12:29] But here's the thing.

[00:12:31] Almost 4 million of those shows have given up.

[00:12:34] There's only like 300 to 400,000 podcasts actually publishing regularly.

[00:12:40] And I got that from the CEO of a podcast database company.

[00:12:43] I tweeted at him and I said, hey, how many, look at your database right now.

[00:12:46] How many shows published an episode in the last 90 days?

[00:12:49] He said it's showing 300 ish thousand.

[00:12:51] So I was like, wow, even though there's almost 4 million in the directory, there's really

[00:12:56] only three to 400,000 shows publishing regularly.

[00:12:59] So while I don't think it's necessarily saturated, I think the competition is higher, right?

[00:13:06] I think like podcasting has been around for 15 years now.

[00:13:10] So the people who are good at it, who have been doing it for a while are really good at

[00:13:14] it, right?

[00:13:14] They're really good at making an amazing show and keeping people listening throughout.

[00:13:18] What's also true is that podcast episodes are long.

[00:13:22] So, you know, the best shows in the world are very, very long.

[00:13:26] And if a podcast listener has only six hours a week to listen to podcasts, three of them

[00:13:32] might be taken up by this one giant show that everybody knows the name of and likes to talk

[00:13:37] about.

[00:13:37] Yeah, they might have a president on the show, you know, like I say the name of it, but you

[00:13:41] know what I'm saying?

[00:13:41] Exactly, right.

[00:13:42] So that's another thing is I think that the fact that this was an election year had an

[00:13:47] impact.

[00:13:47] In 2020, we saw a lot of listenership go to shows that were like about the pandemic and

[00:13:52] shows that weren't about the pandemic suffered a little bit.

[00:13:55] And I think that there was a little bit of that going on this year as well, because everyone

[00:13:58] in the US anyway has been so wrapped up in the election that a lot of people have switched

[00:14:02] to consuming political content.

[00:14:04] My hope, and I guess we'll see soon, is whether that kind of evens back out now that the election

[00:14:09] is over.

[00:14:10] Yeah, I was kind of wondering about that too.

[00:14:12] It's almost like when you're on YouTube and you like watch one video and then they say,

[00:14:16] oh, you like more of those?

[00:14:17] Here's some more.

[00:14:18] Here's some more.

[00:14:18] Here's some more.

[00:14:19] And you kind of get consumed into it.

[00:14:20] And it's just a, I think people are kind of like, they kind of like to watch or listen

[00:14:25] to things that they're really into in the moment.

[00:14:28] Maybe like all of a sudden I bought a new sports car and I'm like, oh, I want to learn more

[00:14:32] about that kind of car or that, or what I can do.

[00:14:34] So I start watching content based on that.

[00:14:36] I wonder if it has something to do with the election too, because the election is going

[00:14:39] on and a lot of people are kind of picking sides and, and seeing what's going on.

[00:14:43] Or, you know, it's, it's almost like, like some of those like TMZ podcasts and TMZ stuff.

[00:14:48] It's like whatever's happening right now in the, in the media, what's happening with celebrities,

[00:14:52] what's happening right now.

[00:14:53] People are drawn to that kind of stuff because it's happening in the moment.

[00:14:57] But going back to your saying about the 4 million podcasts, but those 4 million podcasts, if

[00:15:02] they're on free platforms, like say anchor or whatever it is now, Spotify, they still

[00:15:07] are live.

[00:15:08] Like even on YouTube.

[00:15:09] I mean, I don't think unless you, does the YouTube ever pull, pulls channels, they ever

[00:15:13] shut them down if they're being used?

[00:15:15] I don't think so.

[00:15:16] I don't think so.

[00:15:17] So they're still there.

[00:15:17] So technically you're still physically there.

[00:15:20] You know, I mean, you're still there on the, on the actual platform.

[00:15:22] So you can still consume it, but nothing new is getting added to that channel.

[00:15:27] So it's all old content, which I'm sure, I'm sure if you Google search into YouTube,

[00:15:33] I'm sure some of these older things pop up.

[00:15:35] I mean, I, I've gotten views on videos I posted probably 15 years ago, you know, so there's

[00:15:41] something to consider with that.

[00:15:42] And that's something that like, it's important for audio podcasters to understand as well

[00:15:47] is that YouTube has an algorithm like that.

[00:15:50] And YouTube has SEO like that, where you can't like, there are videos from a decade and a

[00:15:56] half ago that are still getting views because of the YouTube algorithm.

[00:16:00] Podcast audio does not have an algorithm.

[00:16:02] I like to say to my, the podcasters that I serve, you are your own algorithm.

[00:16:06] Like if you stop promoting your show and you stop doing things that get people to not only

[00:16:11] find out that your show exists, but remember that your show exists, your downloads will stop.

[00:16:16] Right.

[00:16:16] So that's something that a lot of podcasters don't really understand.

[00:16:19] And they think that a podcast is like almost every other medium where if you post something

[00:16:24] on social media, especially today, if you post a video on Instagram, like a reel or something

[00:16:28] or a Tik TOK or whatever, and it's good, it could get a million views just with no background,

[00:16:35] like you brand new account can do that.

[00:16:37] Similarly on YouTube, number one, there's videos that are 10 years old that are still getting

[00:16:40] views today.

[00:16:41] And the same thing is true where you can put up a YouTube video.

[00:16:44] And if it is good and it has the right structure that YouTube understands, it'll get views right

[00:16:49] away.

[00:16:49] A podcast, an audio podcast doesn't have that.

[00:16:52] We do like, if you put an audio podcast episode up and you do nothing to promote it and nothing

[00:16:59] to go get people to find out that it exists and tune in, it could be literally the best

[00:17:04] episode that has ever been recorded, but it'll never be heard.

[00:17:07] So I share that.

[00:17:08] That's crazy, man.

[00:17:09] That's weird.

[00:17:10] It's, it's crazy.

[00:17:11] And it's like also a bummer on the surface.

[00:17:13] And I mean, the first 20 minutes of our conversation today, we've been talking about how hard podcasting

[00:17:17] is and what's like, what's gone wrong with it.

[00:17:19] And I don't mean, we don't talk about that stuff to be a bummer.

[00:17:22] I say that stuff so that audio podcasters understand what it is, what, what the audio podcast

[00:17:28] world is like.

[00:17:29] And hopefully understand that if their show does not, is not growing and their show does

[00:17:36] not have a huge audience, they might not be in as bad of a situation as they think, because

[00:17:43] it is so hard to grow.

[00:17:44] It is just so different than every other media, that medium that is currently online.

[00:17:48] So that's the main message that I want to get across is that this thing is just different

[00:17:52] than the others.

[00:17:53] It is.

[00:17:54] It is.

[00:17:54] And I think that people, I think a lot of podcasters see the YouTube algorithm and they

[00:18:00] think that there's a algorithm with podcasting too, or something like that or whatever.

[00:18:05] And they try to try to figure that out.

[00:18:07] And then they, and then they realize, I've seen this firsthand, they'll realize that my audio

[00:18:11] podcast version may get like super small downloads, but the YouTube video version gets like a ton.

[00:18:17] And so they're like going to abandon the audio side because they say, well, that doesn't

[00:18:22] work.

[00:18:23] Obviously I'm going to go jump on the YouTube side because I'm getting the algorithm to feed

[00:18:27] me my stuff and feed the content and whatever, how that goes.

[00:18:31] But knowing that there's no algorithm for a podcast, what are some tips and tricks you

[00:18:36] can give us to help, you know, get those numbers up?

[00:18:39] Yeah.

[00:18:40] So there's basically two main tips or tricks.

[00:18:44] And I say to literally any podcaster, it doesn't matter if you're a new one, if you've been

[00:18:50] podcasting for years, doesn't matter what your show genre is.

[00:18:53] You want to be doing one of two things always if you're still podcasting.

[00:18:59] Thing number one is take advantage of the other algorithms.

[00:19:04] So some of the biggest, most explosive audio podcast growth that I have seen with the shows

[00:19:09] that I've come across and worked with, you know, where I can actually see their data,

[00:19:13] they have grown in one of two ways.

[00:19:15] Either they have done something outside of their podcast on another platform that has

[00:19:19] an algorithm.

[00:19:20] So social media, TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, something that does have an algorithm baked

[00:19:25] in, they become a creator there and then grow there and also send some of their audience

[00:19:32] to their audio podcast.

[00:19:33] That's number one.

[00:19:34] And I know people are like, that sounds like a lot of work.

[00:19:36] It's enough work to make my own.

[00:19:38] Yeah.

[00:19:39] Right.

[00:19:39] It is.

[00:19:40] Right, right.

[00:19:40] Sorry.

[00:19:42] But they're like the truly explosive growth that I have seen has come from that.

[00:19:45] Someone either got really good at one social media platform or they got really good at

[00:19:50] putting their episode on YouTube in a way that YouTube likes and gets growth on YouTube.

[00:19:54] So that's number one, take advantage of an algorithm on another platform.

[00:19:58] Number two is you kind of create your own algorithm by collaborating with other podcasts.

[00:20:04] That's the one that I think every single audio podcaster should do.

[00:20:08] Because if you think about it, if you ask me the question, how do I grow my podcast?

[00:20:13] What you're really asking is, how do I get more people who listen to podcasts on a regular

[00:20:18] basis to find out that mine exists and choose it, right?

[00:20:22] The next time that they listen.

[00:20:23] That's what goes into your podcast growing.

[00:20:26] What better place is there to find podcast listeners than other podcasts that already have

[00:20:34] listeners, right?

[00:20:35] Makes sense.

[00:20:36] Other podcasters have already done the work of gathering your future audience.

[00:20:40] All you have to do is collaborate with those podcasters, which is much easier said than

[00:20:44] done.

[00:20:45] But you collaborate with those shows so that you or your show gets mentioned on those other

[00:20:50] feeds.

[00:20:50] And that makes all those listeners be like, oh, wow, I should go check out Chris's show.

[00:20:55] Yeah, definitely.

[00:20:57] That's why, I mean, you're here and I've got on other shows too.

[00:21:00] It's, I think being interviewed on other people's podcasts and sharing stuff is a great way to

[00:21:04] do that.

[00:21:05] And what are your thoughts on the old fashioned like audio, the feed swaps or audio swaps

[00:21:10] or like show promo swaps, things like that.

[00:21:13] Those do anything?

[00:21:16] Oh, they can be incredibly effective.

[00:21:18] And there are some podcasters I know, like I can mention Jordan Harbinger as one of them.

[00:21:22] He's a massive podcaster.

[00:21:24] He has an unbelievably huge audience.

[00:21:26] And if you ask him, if you come across him at a conference and you say, Jordan, what's

[00:21:30] the one thing I could do to grow my show?

[00:21:31] He will say swaps every single time.

[00:21:34] And there's other big audience podcasters who will say the same thing that I've had a

[00:21:38] lot of them on my show, grow the show.

[00:21:39] And like I said, just having conversations with them, they swear by it.

[00:21:43] However, there's also a lot of podcasters who are like, I tried that and it didn't work.

[00:21:47] And here's why.

[00:21:49] You have to swap with a podcast that has an audience.

[00:21:52] Another big challenge of audio podcasting is that we can't see how big the audience

[00:21:59] is of other podcasts.

[00:22:00] It is entirely private.

[00:22:01] YouTube is not like that.

[00:22:02] You can see how many subscribers they have.

[00:22:03] Oh, it's totally, yeah.

[00:22:04] You can see how many followers.

[00:22:06] Audio podcast, nobody has any idea except you how many downloads you have.

[00:22:09] And the same thing is true.

[00:22:10] If you go and find another show and you're like, my gosh, this show is just the exact

[00:22:14] perfect thing.

[00:22:15] Let me swap with this show.

[00:22:17] That show might only have 50 listeners.

[00:22:20] So that's the big thing that I see when people are like, I've tried a million swaps.

[00:22:24] It really hasn't done anything for me.

[00:22:26] Number one is, are you swapping with shows that have a significant listener base?

[00:22:29] Which can be tough, but still, that's the first place to look is, are you doing a swap?

[00:22:34] Is your swap actually getting in front of listeners, right?

[00:22:38] Right.

[00:22:39] Well, on that note, what about shows that are also in the same parallel with your show,

[00:22:45] like meaning like same kind of content?

[00:22:47] Because you could try to promote your horror movie podcast on like the Susie Homemaker,

[00:22:53] you know, baking goods show or whatever.

[00:22:55] And I don't think it's going to, and people aren't going to care about your horror movie

[00:23:00] podcast on that.

[00:23:01] I see a lot of, in the early days of the pandemic, a lot of podcasters do that.

[00:23:05] They'll throw their promos on every little thing, no matter how generic, how random the

[00:23:10] show is.

[00:23:10] And that could be a reason why a lot of them don't work either.

[00:23:14] Oh, a hundred percent.

[00:23:15] And so I say like swapping on easy mode.

[00:23:18] Yes.

[00:23:19] Focus on shows that you add, like it's a similar topic, similar content, like as much as possible.

[00:23:25] You can achieve it on expert mode.

[00:23:27] There is a way where you can like identify, okay, I have certain people listening to my show.

[00:23:32] They might also be interested in this other type of genre.

[00:23:35] I've seen that work before.

[00:23:36] Like as an example, I've seen comedy shows swap with parenting shows and get a lot of,

[00:23:42] a lot of results because, you know, like new parents, I guess, I don't know, listen to

[00:23:48] comedy podcasts.

[00:23:49] I'm not sure, but that's, like I said, super, super expert mode.

[00:23:52] So it can work going cross genre, but 99 times out of a hundred, the advice is just stick within

[00:23:58] your genre, find shows ideally that are about the same size you are.

[00:24:02] Swap with them so that your show starts to grow.

[00:24:06] And as your show grows, try swapping with shows, you know, that are bigger as your show gets bigger.

[00:24:11] Now, if you're swapping with a show that you think is the same size, how would you know that?

[00:24:16] Is there, I mean, obviously it's all private, you know, the stats are all private.

[00:24:18] So how would somebody find out or get a rough idea?

[00:24:22] Like how many listeners a show would have?

[00:24:26] So number one, you can ask, just straight up ask, Hey, leveled me.

[00:24:29] But people lie about, you know, people lie about that stuff.

[00:24:31] Right.

[00:24:32] They lie.

[00:24:32] So while there's no true way to know, unless you got their login information for their hosting

[00:24:38] platform, two platforms that I go to is you can look at listen notes, which is an online

[00:24:43] database.

[00:24:43] They have a metric that they assign to like the, it's called listen score.

[00:24:49] And what they do is they assign a listen score to podcasts that are in their database based

[00:24:54] on their best guests.

[00:24:56] Now they have a bunch of metrics that they use to guess the relative size of shows, but

[00:25:00] again, it's like relative.

[00:25:01] So I think my listen score is like 45 or something like that.

[00:25:04] And it's like, what does that mean?

[00:25:05] Right.

[00:25:06] So what I do is if I'm using listen notes, I will try to look for other shows that are

[00:25:10] around the 45 mark.

[00:25:11] The other tool that you can use, it's another podcast database.

[00:25:14] It's called Riffonic.

[00:25:15] That one, if you pay for it, they have a, actually, I don't know if you have to pay for it to get

[00:25:20] the estimated audience size, but they similarly have a metric that they calculate.

[00:25:25] They try to estimate how many listeners per episode a show has.

[00:25:28] I have found that in many cases it is accurate every once in a while.

[00:25:32] It's not, but you know, like I said, when, like if I'm pitching shows, like if I'm trying

[00:25:36] to swap with other shows or be a guest on other shows, I usually go to Riffonic and

[00:25:40] see what the guess is.

[00:25:42] And then finally, if you don't want to use those tools, if you don't want to pay for them

[00:25:45] or whatever it is, my favorite shortcut is to just see how many reviews a show has.

[00:25:49] Like if a show on Apple podcasts has more than a hundred reviews, I'm like, okay, there's

[00:25:54] people listening to this.

[00:25:55] If it's less than that, I'm like, or there are lots of guest interviews and they require

[00:26:01] that the guests leave a review.

[00:26:03] I've seen that time and time again.

[00:26:05] I have too.

[00:26:05] I've been on one of those shows and I'm like, oh, this is why.

[00:26:08] Oh, really?

[00:26:08] Where they said you have to leave a review?

[00:26:10] You have to leave a review before.

[00:26:11] Yeah, it was a requirement.

[00:26:12] No way.

[00:26:13] Yeah, I've heard about that.

[00:26:15] What's funny is I thought that that was a huge show because I was like, wow, this show's

[00:26:18] got 450 reviews.

[00:26:20] Then I was a guest and I was like, it's kind of like one time I went to a restaurant in

[00:26:23] South Carolina and I was like, my God, they've got a thousand five-star reviews.

[00:26:26] This is going to be amazing.

[00:26:27] And I went there and the food was okay.

[00:26:29] And at the end, they were like, they like stood over me and asked me to review on Google

[00:26:33] and like, don't let me leave until I did.

[00:26:35] I was like, oh, this is how they have so many reviews.

[00:26:37] So anyway, you're right.

[00:26:38] But most of the time I have found in most cases, it is legit.

[00:26:42] Okay.

[00:26:42] Okay.

[00:26:43] Yeah.

[00:26:43] Because I remember the other show a while ago, there was a show that was asking us on

[00:26:47] social media to do a review swap.

[00:26:50] And I was like, kind of felt weird about it.

[00:26:52] I kind of like icky about doing this, just swap to swap.

[00:26:55] I'm like, you don't even know my show.

[00:26:56] I don't even know your show.

[00:26:57] And I'm thinking like, I don't, I don't, I just felt weird about it.

[00:27:01] So I didn't do it.

[00:27:02] I was like, and the guy got mad at me.

[00:27:03] He got started getting angry towards me for not wanting to swap with it.

[00:27:07] Cause then I look at his, his Apple and it had like 300 reviews on there.

[00:27:11] I'm like, what do you need my review for?

[00:27:13] You already have like 300.

[00:27:14] I think once you get to a certain, certain threshold of reviews, I don't think it makes

[00:27:17] a difference anymore.

[00:27:18] If you have like three, 400, 500 reviews, they're all the same, you know, great show.

[00:27:23] Love the host, you know, or whatever.

[00:27:24] And it's the same thing over and over again.

[00:27:27] I'm honest to God.

[00:27:27] It's like, I swear to you, I have never looked at a review of my life on another, on a show

[00:27:31] that I subscribe to.

[00:27:31] Right.

[00:27:32] Ever.

[00:27:32] Yeah.

[00:27:33] Yeah.

[00:27:34] No, I get it.

[00:27:34] It's like someone wearing a muscle suit, trying to act like they're strong.

[00:27:37] Like you can kind of tell that it's a suit compared to like, Halloween and stuff.

[00:27:42] Yeah.

[00:27:42] Yeah.

[00:27:42] But, but, but, but someone told me this once a while ago that podcasting is free.

[00:27:47] There's no charge to listen.

[00:27:50] So with you, if you don't like the show, sample it, don't like it, move on.

[00:27:56] Versus like say Amazon, where you're going to buy a product, you see all the reviews and

[00:27:59] you kind of see the, what people said about the product.

[00:28:00] And you're like, don't want to spend my money on this or not.

[00:28:03] All you're talking about is spending maybe a few minutes on a podcast, whether you like

[00:28:07] it or not.

[00:28:08] And then you move on.

[00:28:09] So, so for me, I've never, I've never gone to reviews on a show to see if I like a show

[00:28:13] or not.

[00:28:14] Even shows I subscribe to you like yours.

[00:28:16] I don't even know what your reviews look like.

[00:28:17] I've never seen them.

[00:28:18] I don't look at them.

[00:28:19] It doesn't matter to me, you know, but.

[00:28:22] Yeah.

[00:28:22] And I think, I think that's true.

[00:28:24] I think most podcast listeners don't really look at that.

[00:28:25] Where people do look at it is if, for the case that we're talking about, where it's

[00:28:29] like, oh, should we swap with this show?

[00:28:31] Should I be a guest on this show?

[00:28:32] Which to your point, it can be.

[00:28:33] Yeah.

[00:28:33] Yeah.

[00:28:34] So that's, that's one metric to see whether or not a show has a decent size audience,

[00:28:38] you're saying.

[00:28:39] So, and, and of course asking them, but if you do ask them, I said they probably lied

[00:28:42] to you or, or not want to give it up in the first place or whatever and things like that.

[00:28:46] But another person told me once is that you can kind of tell me based on their social

[00:28:50] media size.

[00:28:50] Is that true?

[00:28:51] Oh, I don't think so at all.

[00:28:52] I think there's not much of a correlation because you mean like social media audience size?

[00:28:57] Right.

[00:28:57] So for example, if a show's a podcast, you see a podcast, but you can't see their metrics

[00:29:01] because they're obviously they're hidden and then you check out their social media and you

[00:29:04] say, oh, they've got, you know, 10,000 followers on Instagram and they got X amount of followers

[00:29:07] here.

[00:29:08] They must, they must somewhat have a decent size.

[00:29:13] Yeah.

[00:29:13] No, I don't think that's true at all.

[00:29:14] At all.

[00:29:15] Actually.

[00:29:15] I think I have seen a lot of big shows that have no social media presence and I have seen

[00:29:20] a lot, a lot of people who have solid social media presence who come abject, just

[00:29:27] abject failure in podcasting just could not get people to listen.

[00:29:30] And so, you know, to me, like seeing someone with a large social media following, what

[00:29:35] that tells me is that person has a large following on that platform.

[00:29:40] That person has been really consistent, either bought followers, which you can usually tell,

[00:29:43] or they've shown up on that platform, been really consistent on that platform for a long

[00:29:47] time.

[00:29:48] That's, that's all you can really tell from it.

[00:29:49] And I, it happens all the time that I hear from someone.

[00:29:52] I mean, I've, I've had folks who have millions of followers on social media reach out to me

[00:29:56] to have a call and be like, I've got 2 million followers.

[00:29:58] Why is nobody listening to the show?

[00:29:59] And I'm like, because you're, first of all, your show isn't good.

[00:30:03] Secondly, like-

[00:30:03] Oh, do you actually tell them that?

[00:30:04] You tell them that straight to their face?

[00:30:05] Oh, yeah, yeah.

[00:30:06] Oh, for sure.

[00:30:06] Absolutely.

[00:30:07] Yeah, yeah.

[00:30:07] No question.

[00:30:08] I mean, they're there, they asked, right?

[00:30:09] I'm like, and I'll say like permission to, you know, be honest here.

[00:30:12] Be honest.

[00:30:13] You know, I don't, I don't tell them their show sucks.

[00:30:14] Like I'm a little bit more, I have a little more tact with it, but in no, you know, in,

[00:30:19] in more kind terms, I'll say, you know, this show is not as good.

[00:30:22] And usually you can, you can point to data.

[00:30:24] Like I can say, have you ever looked at your episode completion rate?

[00:30:26] And they'll be like, no, what's that?

[00:30:27] And I'll be like, open up your Apple podcast dashboard.

[00:30:29] Let's take a look.

[00:30:30] And their completion rate is like 20%, which what we want is 65% or more.

[00:30:35] So I'm like, you know, people, and there are former US presidents who have quit podcasting

[00:30:41] because they thought that the fact that they had an audience elsewhere would mean that

[00:30:46] people would flock to listen to them on their show.

[00:30:47] But it is just simply not, not the case.

[00:30:50] I think podcasting, the audio format side of it all, it's probably like the hardest thing

[00:30:54] to get of all the other things out there, like the Instagram, the YouTubes, the, the

[00:31:00] TikToks or whatever.

[00:31:00] I think an actual audio podcast listener to actual, you know, to listen to your show, it's

[00:31:06] got to be hard.

[00:31:07] It's a tough sell.

[00:31:08] I would think, you know, I would say it is the, it is the hardest fought audience relationship.

[00:31:13] I think it is the most valuable because podcast listeners, if you manage to get onto their

[00:31:18] grocery shelf, which they've got room for maybe six shows that they listen to every single

[00:31:22] week and you're competing with the biggest shows, the biggest names, you are like, we

[00:31:27] are all competing with those shows.

[00:31:28] So if you can do that, it's hard to do, but if you can do that, then they're hearing from

[00:31:33] you every single week.

[00:31:34] The level of connection is unbelievable, but yeah, it's tough.

[00:31:37] And look, I'm the grow the show guy.

[00:31:40] I'm the podcast guy.

[00:31:41] Most cases, when somebody asks me if they should launch a podcast, I more often than not will

[00:31:46] say no.

[00:31:47] And a lot of times my advice is go grow a social media platform first, go do, do like something

[00:31:53] a little bit smaller first, grow your audience there, take advantage of the tech platforms

[00:31:59] that want you to grow your audience on there.

[00:32:02] And if you get good at that, then you can, you know, grow a podcast.

[00:32:06] Now, mind you, these are, I first checked to see like, why do you want to have a podcast?

[00:32:10] Are you genuinely passionate about it?

[00:32:12] Like, do you love podcasts?

[00:32:14] Do you love listening to them?

[00:32:15] Is there a show that you feel like should exist and doesn't yet?

[00:32:18] Like, do you love the medium that much?

[00:32:20] And are you cool understanding the fact that it is the hardest one to grow?

[00:32:24] If all of that is yes, then absolutely have at it.

[00:32:27] But in many cases, they're like, no, I just want to build an audience.

[00:32:31] And I'm like, if that's the case, then you should probably go elsewhere because this is

[00:32:34] literally the hardest one.

[00:32:35] It is very hard.

[00:32:36] It's very, it's very tough to get, to get listeners.

[00:32:39] Then I know you've mentioned before about some podcasts will have people coming in, but

[00:32:44] people leaving out the other side, I think.

[00:32:46] So it's like, you're bringing people in great.

[00:32:49] You're promoting your show.

[00:32:50] Great.

[00:32:50] You're putting on social media.

[00:32:51] Great.

[00:32:52] You're like, check out the new episode, come click on it and all that stuff, but doesn't

[00:32:56] have that sticky factor.

[00:32:57] So they're not staying around.

[00:32:59] They're just leaving.

[00:33:00] I know you mentioned this in your, was your ladder of structure, a framework you have, you

[00:33:04] can we go over that and go over your ladder frame and how it all works and what advice

[00:33:10] you have for podcasters that want to like grow that are stuck, you know?

[00:33:15] Yeah.

[00:33:15] So any podcast that wants two things.

[00:33:19] Thing number one is they want the show to be growing.

[00:33:22] They want to see their audience growing every single month.

[00:33:24] And number two is the show is monetized.

[00:33:26] So the podcast is generating revenue.

[00:33:28] If you want those two things to be true, there's four things that you have to achieve

[00:33:33] and you have to achieve all four of them.

[00:33:36] And so I call it the podcast ladder because I've seen shows that achieve level three, but

[00:33:41] they have not achieved level one.

[00:33:43] So they're at zero because they haven't gotten through step one yet.

[00:33:47] And then a lot of times when they fix step one, they'll jump up to level three, but you

[00:33:51] really, you need all four and you need them in order.

[00:33:53] So let's talk through what those things are.

[00:33:56] Great.

[00:33:56] So the first thing that you need, if you want a podcast that grows and monetizes is you need

[00:34:02] what I call a clear and unique premise, clear and unique premise.

[00:34:06] What the hell does that mean?

[00:34:07] Well, the idea is this.

[00:34:09] When somebody pulls up your show, if they come across it somehow and they look at your, the

[00:34:14] show's title and the little thumbnail, right?

[00:34:17] And the description of the show, is it immediately clear who the show is for and what it is going

[00:34:25] to do for them?

[00:34:26] Not what you, the podcaster are going to do on the show.

[00:34:30] Not I'm going to interview successful people or I'm going to tell stories.

[00:34:33] Right.

[00:34:33] It's what is this show going to do for them?

[00:34:36] Right.

[00:34:36] So I'll give you two examples of my shows.

[00:34:40] My current show, grow the show.

[00:34:42] What I don't say is grow the show is the podcast where I, Kevin, a podcast expert interview successful

[00:34:48] podcasters and share my wisdom.

[00:34:50] That's what I do on the show.

[00:34:52] What I instead say is grow the show is the podcast that grows your podcast.

[00:34:58] Right.

[00:34:58] So I say, this is what this show is going to do for you.

[00:35:01] Now it's a little bit more straightforward for that show because it is an educational show.

[00:35:05] If your show is not educational though, you still can do this.

[00:35:09] So my first show, which was called Philly Who, what did I do on the show?

[00:35:14] I interviewed successful and famous Philadelphians and told their stories.

[00:35:18] Okay.

[00:35:19] That's what I did.

[00:35:20] Now, back then I used to say, that's what the show was.

[00:35:22] This is before I really, really dug into this stuff to understand it and articulate it.

[00:35:26] But if I brought Philly Who back now, because by the way, I'm not making the show anymore

[00:35:31] because grow the show just so took over my life.

[00:35:34] Right.

[00:35:34] Yeah.

[00:35:34] If I brought the show back now, I would say Philly Who is the podcast that connects you

[00:35:39] deeper with your city.

[00:35:41] That makes you more connected with the people of Philadelphia.

[00:35:44] See the difference?

[00:35:45] How it's not what I'm doing, but what the show is going to do for you.

[00:35:48] Right.

[00:35:48] Yeah.

[00:35:49] I mean, everybody wants something that's in it for them.

[00:35:52] You know.

[00:35:53] A thousand percent.

[00:35:53] Yeah.

[00:35:54] And it's sad because I think as content creators, as podcasters, you want them to love us.

[00:35:59] They want us to do it because they love us and they love our material.

[00:36:03] You know, but.

[00:36:04] Yeah.

[00:36:05] And the way that you get there is by making your material about the listener.

[00:36:08] If you just ruthlessly make it about them and what it's going to do for them and serving

[00:36:12] them, then they love you.

[00:36:14] Like they make it about you.

[00:36:15] What's funny is when I launched Philly Who, I never mentioned my background, who I was.

[00:36:19] I would just say, you're listening to Philly Who.

[00:36:21] My name is Kevin, and today we're talking to this person.

[00:36:23] And after the show started to get some momentum, I had people writing in that were like, that

[00:36:28] were asking me about my story.

[00:36:30] And like, I was being invited to speak on panels as an expert of Philadelphia.

[00:36:34] And I'm like, I'm not.

[00:36:36] And I was like, I'm not an expert.

[00:36:38] I'm just interviewing people who are doing things.

[00:36:40] And they're like, no.

[00:36:41] Yeah.

[00:36:41] They were like fighting me on it.

[00:36:42] They're like, you're an expert.

[00:36:42] You're an incredible Philadelphia.

[00:36:43] And so it's kind of backwards.

[00:36:44] But the more you make your show about your listeners, the more they make it about you,

[00:36:49] which is what we all want in the end.

[00:36:51] Right.

[00:36:51] Of course.

[00:36:52] I mean, that's kind of how it all works.

[00:36:53] That's how you actually get.

[00:36:55] So that's the step one.

[00:36:57] Step one.

[00:36:58] And what I'll wrap up step one with is if there's one simple test is when you tell another

[00:37:03] human being in person what your show is.

[00:37:06] Number one, you should be able to say it in one sentence.

[00:37:08] Just one sentence.

[00:37:09] If it takes you five minutes, you've lost them.

[00:37:11] So you want to have a quick tagline, my tagline for grow the show, grow the show, the podcast

[00:37:16] that grows your podcast.

[00:37:17] Very simple.

[00:37:19] When you tell that to somebody in person, if they are the right listener for your show,

[00:37:23] do their eyes light up or do their eyes glaze over?

[00:37:27] And if you're like, oh, I have a podcast that tells stories of these crimes that have

[00:37:31] happened and people are kind of like, they glaze over and they're like, oh, that's, that's

[00:37:34] really interesting.

[00:37:35] Then that's happening when other people discover your show.

[00:37:38] And that's a reason why your show isn't growing.

[00:37:40] But if they're like, whoa, and their eyes light up, that's when you're onto something.

[00:37:44] And that's just step one.

[00:37:45] Wow.

[00:37:46] Okay.

[00:37:47] So step two?

[00:37:49] Step two, now that we have a clear and unique premise, now we need to focus on keeping listeners.

[00:37:55] And this is the initial thing that you asked about, right?

[00:37:58] Most podcasters think that they have a growth problem when really what they have is a retention

[00:38:02] problem.

[00:38:03] I see it all the time where a podcaster, you know, they do all kinds of stuff to promote

[00:38:07] their show.

[00:38:08] They post on social media, they're maybe showing up on other podcasts, whatever.

[00:38:11] But their download number stays the same.

[00:38:13] And they think that it's the same 100 people tuning in every episode.

[00:38:17] I'm stuck at 100 downloads per episode.

[00:38:19] I'm stuck at 100 people.

[00:38:20] I'm like, you're not stuck at 100 people.

[00:38:22] It's probably 20 people that come back every week.

[00:38:25] And then every week you've got 80 new people who listen to an episode and they're like, man,

[00:38:29] this, I don't know, this isn't that great.

[00:38:30] And then they never come back ever again.

[00:38:32] So it's an invisible churn.

[00:38:34] They think they have a growth problem, but they have a retention problem.

[00:38:36] And when that is the case, I'll say like, look, until we get this fixed, I could go out

[00:38:41] and I could get you a million downloads next week.

[00:38:44] In two weeks, you'll be back to 100 unless we fix this.

[00:38:48] Right?

[00:38:49] So that's why I'm like, I don't even want to care.

[00:38:51] I don't care about growth.

[00:38:51] Are we keeping the people that tune in for an entire episode?

[00:38:55] Step one.

[00:38:56] And then step two, are they coming back week after week?

[00:38:58] The number one thing you can look at to understand this is what we mentioned before,

[00:39:02] your completion rate.

[00:39:03] It's a metric that's given to you by Spotify for podcasters or Apple Podcasts Connect.

[00:39:08] You can log into an analytics dashboard and you'll get a percentage on average of all the

[00:39:13] people who listen to your episodes.

[00:39:15] What percentage did they actually listen to?

[00:39:17] And with every podcaster that I work with or that I help, I want to see 65% or more.

[00:39:23] If it's lower than that, that means that there's a hole in your show, right?

[00:39:27] There's, it's, it's like you're trying to fill a wicker basket with water.

[00:39:31] You're like, oh, I just need a better faucet, right?

[00:39:34] It's like the water level doesn't rise.

[00:39:35] But when you get really good at retention, which involves understanding how, understanding

[00:39:39] how to have a great intro to hook people in, understanding how to keep your show on topic

[00:39:43] and keep things moving and keep people interested.

[00:39:46] When you do that, then your show is a steel bucket.

[00:39:49] And then the same effort, the same faucet makes the water level rise quicker.

[00:39:54] Perfect.

[00:39:54] That's great.

[00:39:55] I know that some shows you click on, you're like, what is this garbage I'm listening to?

[00:39:59] And you're just like, click, turn it off or take some like 10 minutes to get to any point

[00:40:04] on the show.

[00:40:05] Right.

[00:40:05] Random stuff.

[00:40:07] And that podcaster's like, I think I should run some Facebook ads.

[00:40:09] I really just need to grow this thing.

[00:40:11] It's like, no.

[00:40:11] Throw my money at it.

[00:40:12] Just throw money at it.

[00:40:13] That'll be the, that'll be the thing, you know?

[00:40:15] Right.

[00:40:15] Everyone's like, I know it's not my content.

[00:40:17] It usually is.

[00:40:18] It usually is.

[00:40:19] That's the thing too, is that, yeah, when you ask somebody, when people, you know, ask them

[00:40:22] about their show, cause I was doing some reviews on some shows and, uh,

[00:40:25] cause they didn't write out, write, send me their show, ask me to give a review.

[00:40:28] And one person, I gave like an honest review, but it was nice about it, you know?

[00:40:31] But I gave them an honest review and they like chewed me out and like yelled at me and

[00:40:35] like all kinds of stuff.

[00:40:36] Like, you know, I'm like, it was hot garbage.

[00:40:39] It literally was hot garbage.

[00:40:40] Echo city, like probably sharing one blue Yeti microphone in the middle of the living

[00:40:44] room, whatever, drinking beers and talking about who knows what.

[00:40:47] And I don't know what the show was even about, but it's totally horrible.

[00:40:51] That's the problem.

[00:40:52] Right.

[00:40:53] And then, and then like, you know, I think of the problem when people say, check out my

[00:40:56] show, what they're really asking is say, yes, you love it too.

[00:41:00] Yeah.

[00:41:01] Oh yeah.

[00:41:01] Yeah.

[00:41:01] Yeah.

[00:41:02] Yeah.

[00:41:02] Right.

[00:41:02] They don't want feedback.

[00:41:04] Right.

[00:41:04] They want praise.

[00:41:05] Right.

[00:41:05] Yes.

[00:41:05] It's just say it's great.

[00:41:07] And that's why, I mean, I was guilty of the same thing.

[00:41:09] I used to send my show out, other show out too.

[00:41:11] And say, check it out.

[00:41:12] Tell me you love it too.

[00:41:13] And stuff, you know, and that sort of thing.

[00:41:15] And, but I never really got any like real true, like hardcore, like real feedback.

[00:41:20] And I think when people actually get the feedback, they either two things happen.

[00:41:23] They say, Oh, I appreciate that.

[00:41:25] Or they get mad.

[00:41:26] So.

[00:41:27] Yeah.

[00:41:28] Okay.

[00:41:28] So moving on.

[00:41:29] So that was number two.

[00:41:30] One and two of the hardest parts.

[00:41:32] It's 80% of the folks.

[00:41:33] Now that's a guess.

[00:41:34] I would guess 80% of the folks that I work with, they have problems with number one or

[00:41:38] number two and they're, they're hard to solve.

[00:41:39] Right.

[00:41:40] Because it's a creative problem, right?

[00:41:41] You got to make your show better and more attractive.

[00:41:43] Once you get that though, you have a show that has a clear premise.

[00:41:46] People get it right away.

[00:41:47] What it's about.

[00:41:48] Your show keeps listeners.

[00:41:49] You're seeing retention rates above completion rates above 65%.

[00:41:53] That's when we go to growth.

[00:41:56] And for level three, we've already talked about it, right?

[00:41:59] We share the two strategies.

[00:42:00] Level three, I say, go get listeners where they listen.

[00:42:04] So I would recommend that all podcasters always have some sort of podcast related growth

[00:42:10] strategy in progress.

[00:42:11] The number one thing to understand here is that just like you as a podcaster are super

[00:42:18] consistent with publishing episodes.

[00:42:20] Podcasters understand, I got to be consistent.

[00:42:22] I'm going to set a schedule and I got to stick with it.

[00:42:24] I can't miss a single episode.

[00:42:25] That is good that we have collectively hammered that into our brains.

[00:42:29] But consistency of publishing alone is not enough.

[00:42:34] All the time, podcasters like, I've been consistent for 10 years.

[00:42:36] Why isn't it growing?

[00:42:37] Because consistency of publishing isn't enough.

[00:42:39] You also must be consistent with marketing.

[00:42:43] It's got to be just a part of your weekly and your monthly routine.

[00:42:46] Something that you also don't miss, just like you don't miss publishing.

[00:42:50] How much percentage time-wise should you devote towards marketing your podcast versus creating

[00:42:56] the podcast?

[00:42:57] Yeah, my usual rule of thumb is 50-50.

[00:42:59] 50-50?

[00:43:00] Okay.

[00:43:01] So 50% creating, 50% marketing.

[00:43:03] That's the rule of thumb.

[00:43:04] It's obviously different for everybody, but that's where I start with everyone.

[00:43:07] And I'm like, if you had to guess where you're at, they'll be like, oh, 90%.

[00:43:10] It's really like, they'll say 90% creating and 10% marketing.

[00:43:14] And then when we like do a time study and look at the actual work that they did, it's more

[00:43:18] like 99-1.

[00:43:19] Oh, really?

[00:43:20] Yeah.

[00:43:21] Oh, most of the time.

[00:43:22] Because people remember, they remember their marketing as taking longer because it didn't

[00:43:26] work and it sucked and it wasn't fun.

[00:43:28] And they're like, that took forever.

[00:43:29] And it's like, actually, no, it didn't.

[00:43:31] There was not a lot of time spent on it.

[00:43:33] Oh, wow.

[00:43:33] That's crazy.

[00:43:34] Okay.

[00:43:35] So that is three.

[00:43:37] Three.

[00:43:38] So once again, if you are collaborating with other shows, if you are showing up on social

[00:43:43] media or YouTube, pick one of those three things and get really good at it.

[00:43:47] Your show will start growing.

[00:43:48] And the last big question is, and I guess this is one I get all the time.

[00:43:51] How do I monetize my podcast?

[00:43:53] Right?

[00:43:54] Terrible question.

[00:43:56] Why?

[00:43:57] Well, I usually say, okay, at what moment is your podcast monetized?

[00:44:03] Right.

[00:44:03] When did you go from my podcast is not monetized and then something happened and now it was?

[00:44:09] What would you say to that, Chris?

[00:44:10] Well, first off, I would say define monetizing your podcast dollar wise, I would say, because

[00:44:16] the other show, we made three bucks.

[00:44:18] I thought we were like, we're monetized.

[00:44:19] Right.

[00:44:20] But then people say, oh, I want to monetize enough to quit my job.

[00:44:23] That's a different level than the three bucks.

[00:44:26] So it's easy to make the three bucks or whatever it is monetizing.

[00:44:30] Maybe one of those like pre-made ads or whatever, things like that.

[00:44:33] You make a few cents on those kinds of things.

[00:44:35] So for actually making a podcast where it's monetized, I think you need an audience because

[00:44:43] without an audience, who are you monetizing?

[00:44:46] And another thing too is I think that I don't think your show itself, but I could be wrong.

[00:44:54] I think I don't think your show itself is the thing for sale.

[00:44:58] I think the value that your show delivers, it's what's for sale, but it could be going off here

[00:45:04] on a tangent, but that's kind of what I was thinking.

[00:45:06] Here's how I think about it.

[00:45:07] Cause I think you're on the right track.

[00:45:08] Here's how, here's how I think about it.

[00:45:09] Cause I've spent a lot of time trying to articulate this to teach it to other podcasters.

[00:45:13] And so, so this is, this is what I usually say.

[00:45:15] I'm like, cause usually I ask like, at what point is your podcast monetized?

[00:45:19] And what podcasters usually say, whether it's three bucks or six figures a year, they're like,

[00:45:23] when I get paid.

[00:45:24] Right.

[00:45:25] And I'm like, okay, who's paying you?

[00:45:29] And they're like, well, my sponsors, they're supporting the show.

[00:45:32] And I'm like, uh, uh, your sponsors are not supporting the show.

[00:45:36] Your sponsors are giving you money in advance for your audience to buy their stuff.

[00:45:41] That is the only reason that any company is going to sponsor your show.

[00:45:46] Very simply, they're going to give you money in advance because they believe that your listeners

[00:45:50] are going to hear you talk about their thing.

[00:45:51] Your listeners are going to buy their stuff and they're going to make more money from

[00:45:54] their listeners buying their stuff than they gave to you.

[00:45:57] Full stop.

[00:45:59] So other podcasters will be like, well, I could sell a course.

[00:46:02] I can sell this.

[00:46:03] I could sell that.

[00:46:03] I'm like, yes, that's true too.

[00:46:04] So here's the, the one thing to remember when it comes to podcast monetization.

[00:46:09] I always say there's only one way to monetize a podcast.

[00:46:12] Only one.

[00:46:13] And that is to get your listeners to buy something.

[00:46:17] Yeah.

[00:46:17] That's it.

[00:46:18] It's either the stuff that you sell to them.

[00:46:20] So my listeners of grow the show, they either join my membership to grow the show Academy,

[00:46:24] or they hire my company to come in and help them grow their show.

[00:46:27] They buy stuff from me.

[00:46:30] Other shows don't sell something directly to their listener base.

[00:46:33] They have sponsors.

[00:46:34] And so they get their audience to buy something from their sponsors.

[00:46:37] So it doesn't matter who's making the thing that your audience is buying.

[00:46:40] The only way, in my opinion, to monetize a podcast is to get that podcast audience to

[00:46:45] buy something that you get a cut of somehow.

[00:46:48] Either you're the owner of the business or sponsorship dollars or affiliates or whatever

[00:46:52] it is.

[00:46:52] So I said before, how do my, how do I monetize my podcast is a terrible question because it's

[00:46:58] very difficult to answer.

[00:46:59] A better question to ask is what might my listeners want to buy based off of my recommendation?

[00:47:05] Right.

[00:47:06] That's it.

[00:47:07] Right.

[00:47:07] The answer to that question is how you monetize your podcast.

[00:47:10] That's great.

[00:47:11] That's good advice, man.

[00:47:12] And it all comes down to having an audience in the first place because you can't monetize

[00:47:16] nobody.

[00:47:17] And that is why it is level four on the ladder, right?

[00:47:20] I see podcasters who they don't have a clear premise.

[00:47:22] They don't have retention and they don't, they definitely don't have growth, but they got

[00:47:27] their buddy who owns a pizza shop to sponsor their show.

[00:47:29] So like technically, yes, they made money.

[00:47:31] That's fine.

[00:47:32] But my message is that's not sustainable because your buddy is going to be like, what am I doing

[00:47:35] this for?

[00:47:35] Like nobody's coming to buy pizza, right?

[00:47:37] Right.

[00:47:37] Right.

[00:47:38] It's you want to nail those three things first and then it's okay.

[00:47:43] Now that I have this audience that is growing now, what can I offer them in order to actually

[00:47:48] make money from this thing?

[00:47:50] Right.

[00:47:50] That's fantastic, man.

[00:47:52] Way to grow your show and ultimately make money.

[00:47:55] If that's your goal to make money, go ahead and make money.

[00:47:57] You know, that's fantastic.

[00:47:58] I know a lot of people, they come into podcasting with two mindsets.

[00:48:01] Like I want to have fun or make money.

[00:48:04] And we're the ones that say I'm having fun now, but now later I want to make money.

[00:48:08] You see those guys too.

[00:48:09] They come in like, well, right now we're having fun, but someday we want to make, you know,

[00:48:13] a fortune.

[00:48:14] We want to quit our jobs.

[00:48:15] Everybody, yeah.

[00:48:16] Everybody says, literally everybody says that.

[00:48:18] I, it has been exceedingly rare that I've come across someone who says I'm having a blast

[00:48:21] with this and I at no point care to monetize this.

[00:48:24] Really?

[00:48:25] Ever.

[00:48:26] Really?

[00:48:27] Wow.

[00:48:27] I mean, maybe a couple of times I shouldn't speak in absolutes, right?

[00:48:30] But it's very, very uncommon.

[00:48:32] It's almost always, yeah, I really think, I really think I should monetize it.

[00:48:36] And that's, that's actually more than I get.

[00:48:37] People are like, I've been podcasting for five years.

[00:48:40] This should be monetized.

[00:48:41] Just based on, just based on the timeframe.

[00:48:44] Right.

[00:48:44] Yeah.

[00:48:44] They're like, oh, it should be monetized by now.

[00:48:46] And I'm like, that's not how this works.

[00:48:47] It's, you know, it's maybe, but like, there's no, oh, you have to do it.

[00:48:52] It's not like you serve your tenure.

[00:48:54] Right.

[00:48:55] It's like on the clock.

[00:48:55] So about 20, so many hours on the clock, you get a pay raise or something like that.

[00:48:59] It's tough work.

[00:49:01] It is tough work.

[00:49:02] It is a lot.

[00:49:02] Like there are way quicker ways to make money, way quicker ways to make money than podcasting.

[00:49:07] And what I found is that the longer you can wait to monetize it, the more money

[00:49:12] ultimately you can make.

[00:49:13] Really?

[00:49:14] Because the longer, yes.

[00:49:15] Because I see all the time.

[00:49:16] I mean, I just had somebody email me last week.

[00:49:18] They said, I have a podcast.

[00:49:20] It gets a hundred downloads per episode.

[00:49:22] If that, I don't know how to grow it.

[00:49:23] And I have no idea how to monetize it.

[00:49:25] And I just lost my job.

[00:49:26] And I think I should go all into my podcast to, you know, replace my job.

[00:49:31] And I, I can't respond to every email that I get.

[00:49:34] When I get those, I almost always respond as quickly as possible to say, I love podcasting.

[00:49:40] I'm here to serve you as much as I possibly can.

[00:49:42] You should get another job.

[00:49:44] You should get another source of refund of, you should get another source of income.

[00:49:48] And here's why.

[00:49:50] I was there.

[00:49:52] What we didn't talk about in my story is that I launched Philly Who in 2018.

[00:49:56] Six weeks after launching the show, it got like 200 downloads an episode, which that's

[00:50:00] actually pretty good.

[00:50:01] I didn't know that, know it at the time, but that's actually pretty solid for, for a show.

[00:50:05] I gave my notice.

[00:50:06] I had a six figure software developer job.

[00:50:08] 200 downloads?

[00:50:09] 200 downloads.

[00:50:10] Yep.

[00:50:11] Dude, I was 25, 26 years old.

[00:50:14] I knew forever.

[00:50:15] I wanted to be this, you know, entrepreneur guy.

[00:50:17] And I was like, this is it.

[00:50:19] I got to go all in on this thing in order for it to make it my thing.

[00:50:22] Well, what I would discover is that it's very hard to grow a podcast when you have a full-time

[00:50:26] job.

[00:50:27] It is even harder to grow a podcast when you have no income.

[00:50:31] It's harder because.

[00:50:32] Everything costs money.

[00:50:34] I mean, everything.

[00:50:35] It costs money, but it just puts you in such an urgent position and a scarcity position that

[00:50:41] your show gets worse because you're not making good content.

[00:50:44] Really?

[00:50:44] I wondered about that.

[00:50:45] But there's so much pressure because we think if I just could work on this full-time, the

[00:50:50] show would be way better.

[00:50:51] But what happens is your income goes away.

[00:50:53] And even if you have savings, that savings number starts to go down.

[00:50:56] And so you start to panic and you're like, I got to monetize this thing.

[00:50:59] What do I got to do to monetize this thing?

[00:51:00] Right.

[00:51:01] And then the quality of your podcast suffers.

[00:51:03] It spirals.

[00:51:04] It gets worse and worse.

[00:51:05] It makes it harder for your show to grow and monetize.

[00:51:07] And then ultimately, I've seen people get themselves in a lot of trouble financially because I want

[00:51:12] to go all in on this thing.

[00:51:13] So my message, including me, like I went into a bunch of debt until I finally, you know,

[00:51:17] figured it out.

[00:51:18] And I don't recommend it.

[00:51:19] Like it was not a good thing.

[00:51:20] So I usually say the longer you can wait to monetize your show, the more you can put yourself

[00:51:27] in a position to not need the show to be monetized, the more likely it is that the show will make

[00:51:33] decent money because you'll be able to make great decisions and focus on putting out a

[00:51:37] great show, growing the audience as much as you possibly can.

[00:51:40] And then there's this magical moment when your show has momentum and you have an audience.

[00:51:45] People start reaching out to you and asking you, hey, do you sell coaching?

[00:51:49] Do you sell a course?

[00:51:50] What are your recommendations for products I should buy?

[00:51:53] Your audience starts asking if you can make recommendations for what they can buy, which

[00:51:59] means they start asking you to monetize them.

[00:52:02] It's a magical moment.

[00:52:04] Not everybody gets there because most people just want to leave their job and do podcasting

[00:52:08] full time.

[00:52:08] But like I said, it's hard to get there.

[00:52:11] But if you can, that's the way to do it.

[00:52:13] And the same thing goes with any kind of entrepreneur.

[00:52:16] My wife, she does a wedding business on the side, but she doesn't do it full time.

[00:52:19] People ask her like, are you doing this full time?

[00:52:22] Because she knows other vendors that do it full time.

[00:52:24] And they're super stressed out when they don't have any clients coming in or they don't have

[00:52:29] any bookings coming in.

[00:52:30] And they're super stressed out.

[00:52:31] And I mean, she gets a little worried too, but she's booking for next year and things like

[00:52:34] that.

[00:52:35] But it's not at the point where it is our sole income.

[00:52:39] So it's not something to really get crazy stressed out about where I think that if you

[00:52:45] have no other real job and you're trying to monetize a podcast or anything really, and

[00:52:50] the numbers aren't working out your way and you don't get clients, you don't get ads,

[00:52:53] you don't get whatever it is, you start stressing out.

[00:52:56] And maybe it's not fun anymore.

[00:52:59] And I think if it's not fun for you, the creator anymore, how's it going to be fun for the listener

[00:53:02] to listen to it?

[00:53:03] Oh my gosh.

[00:53:05] I would grab that, what you just said, and put it on every podcaster's wall.

[00:53:11] Because if that doesn't sum it up, I don't know what does.

[00:53:13] Oh man.

[00:53:14] Well, Kevin, this has been so fantastic having you on the show today, buddy.

[00:53:18] I really appreciate you stopping by and sharing all of your great wisdom about podcasting,

[00:53:23] how to grow the show and all that fantastic stuff, man.

[00:53:26] Thanks, Chris.

[00:53:27] This was a blast.

[00:53:27] I mean, I love talking shop, so I'm just so grateful that you had me on.

[00:53:30] That's great, man.

[00:53:31] Now, where can everybody find out all about you and all your wonderful stuff?

[00:53:35] Yeah.

[00:53:35] So, I mean, you're listening to me on a podcast right now.

[00:53:38] So the number one thing you can do is after you're done listening to all of Chris's episodes,

[00:53:42] you can check out the Grow the Show podcast in whatever app you're using right now to hear my voice.

[00:53:47] Every single episode is meant to be an audio lesson.

[00:53:50] Most of them are just me, but sometimes I bring on guests.

[00:53:53] And the goal is every episode you leave with some sort of tactic or strategy that you can use to grow

[00:53:58] or monetize.

[00:53:59] And so that's number one.

[00:54:00] Number two is just if you would rather get my teachings in your inbox, in your email inbox,

[00:54:04] I've got an email course called the 12 Days of Podcast Growth.

[00:54:08] Totally free.

[00:54:09] It's a 12-day sequence.

[00:54:11] Every single day you get one lesson.

[00:54:12] And then by the end, you've been taught the podcast ladder in more detail.

[00:54:15] And so for that, you can just go to 12daysofpodcastgrowth.com.

[00:54:19] One, two.

[00:54:19] Number one.

[00:54:20] Number two.

[00:54:20] That was amazing.

[00:54:25] That was amazing.

[00:54:50] Wherever you listen to this podcast.

[00:54:52] I appreciate you listening.

[00:54:54] And I do this show directly for you so that you can make an amazing podcast of your own.

[00:55:00] And until next time, happy podcasting.