184 | Indie Podcaster's Playbook: Tips for Growth and Monetization with Steven Gould

[00:00:00] Do you want to grow your podcast, connect with your audience and even start making some of that sweet, sweet podcasting money? Well, of course you do. So today, Steven Gould reveals how he built something incredible from his niche. He's going to share practical tips that every podcaster can use. Today is a big one. Welcome to 2025.

[00:00:30] Sound matters. Be heard. Welcome to the podcast where you get exclusive behind the scenes tips to make your own show sound truly spectacular. This is Podtastic Audio.

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[00:02:17] So, not that long ago, I get an email through my website and if you want to email me there too, you can at podtasticaudio.com.

[00:02:26] There's a contact form right there. But the email reads as this. It says,

[00:02:30] Hey brother, fellow podcaster here. Been listening to your show and it's been a big help to keeping me motivated.

[00:02:39] Started my show in 2018 and I've been trying to take it more seriously the last couple of years.

[00:02:45] It's a grind, man. Get around 25 to 30,000 downloads a month and some nice extra money from it.

[00:02:54] Almost enough to pay the mortgage. Been trying to keep, been trying to, been trying to game plan on how to take it to the next level.

[00:03:02] I have absolute faith in the show and I just need to feel I don't do a good enough job getting it out there.

[00:03:10] It's called Things Police See Firsthand Accounts.

[00:03:14] If you're curious, it's mostly entertainment value, although it does offer some good encouragement to people in the field or thinking to be in the field.

[00:03:23] Just thought I'd shoot you a note and say, I enjoy your podcast and thank you so much from Steve Gould.

[00:03:30] Now, when I first read that, I was like, wow, that's great. I appreciate the feedback. I love feedback. We all love feedback.

[00:03:37] It's amazing when a new listener finds you and discovers your show and actually says positive things and wants to have a conversation.

[00:03:45] So we went back and forth and we're talking about downloads and the different things about podcasting and stuff like that.

[00:03:51] I'm thinking like, wow, here's this guy is an indie podcaster just like me, just like you.

[00:03:57] Yet he's getting massive, massive download numbers enough to actually make some serious cash from his podcast.

[00:04:06] Like, what's your secret? How are you doing it?

[00:04:09] The thing that Steve is doing with his podcast, the things that police see, his podcast is very niche.

[00:04:16] It's about police stuff, interviewing other people that are cops, officers of the law, not just in America, but all over the world, hearing their stories.

[00:04:28] So today I decided to bring on Steve onto the podcast today to share his podcasting journey.

[00:04:36] I went from zero downloads to like 40,000 downloads.

[00:04:41] How is he able to actually make an income from his podcast directly as an indie podcaster?

[00:04:47] How is he able to pull all that stuff off?

[00:04:49] So today we're covering what is it about having a niche podcast that makes his show so successful?

[00:04:57] How he actually overcame challenges with growing his show?

[00:05:01] Because at the beginning, we always start off with zero downloads, especially as an indie podcaster.

[00:05:08] We're not famous.

[00:05:09] So we all start off at the same level.

[00:05:12] So how is he able to take zero and transform that into a massive, large scale audience?

[00:05:19] How is he able to do that?

[00:05:20] And most importantly, how was he able to physically monetize his podcast?

[00:05:27] And how much money is he actually earning each month from his podcast?

[00:05:33] He's going to tell you all that stuff, all his strategies today on this episode.

[00:05:38] So being that Steve is in law enforcement, I wanted to know is, is that why you decided

[00:05:44] to make a podcast about law enforcement because you were already in it?

[00:05:49] Yeah.

[00:05:50] I mean, it's kind of a long story, but four years ago, I was actually living in Southern California.

[00:05:54] My family and I had moved cross country.

[00:05:57] I'd been in law enforcement, Massachusetts for 14 years.

[00:06:00] And we decided, you know, we just want like wanderlust.

[00:06:04] We're like, we just want to, we've lived in mass our whole lives.

[00:06:07] We rented our house.

[00:06:08] We bought a camper.

[00:06:09] We went cross country for like 40 days and landed in Southern California.

[00:06:13] And I'd already put an application in with the background unit for the city of Los Angeles,

[00:06:19] which would be doing background investigations for LAPD.

[00:06:23] So we landed there a month or two went by just long enough to make it stressful, not having

[00:06:28] any income.

[00:06:29] You know, the car Cobra health insurance was starting to get close to the end.

[00:06:33] And boom, I got an interview with LAPD backgrounds and there I was doing backgrounds for them.

[00:06:39] And while I was there, all that to say, while I was there, I would go on lunch break and

[00:06:44] I was getting to know the unit and everybody.

[00:06:46] And I got to work with like absolute police legends.

[00:06:50] Like these guys, I mean, robbery homicide division, 40 years.

[00:06:53] A lot of them had been in five, six shootouts in their, in their career.

[00:06:58] Just, just wild stories from, from these guys.

[00:07:01] And they would tell them at lunch.

[00:07:03] And so we would sit there and eating.

[00:07:04] And I've always been a small town cop and I'm not diminishing what, what small town

[00:07:08] cops deal with?

[00:07:09] Cause we deal with plenty, but listening to these guys from LAPD tell these stories were,

[00:07:16] they were almost unbelievable.

[00:07:17] It's like, Oh my goodness, this is crazy.

[00:07:19] And I thought, you know, if, if someone could be a fly in the wall and be kind of let inside

[00:07:24] this little group and hear the madness that police officers actually have to deal with,

[00:07:30] they would have, they would, they would definitely get a better appreciation and understanding

[00:07:34] for what the job is like and what the men and women of law enforcement have to go through.

[00:07:38] So that was kind of, I was like, and on top of that, I've always loved podcasting.

[00:07:43] I listened to a ton of podcasts.

[00:07:45] I love gear.

[00:07:46] I love everything about it.

[00:07:47] So I just needed a reason to start a podcast.

[00:07:50] And I was like, it just kind of clicked.

[00:07:51] I took, I actually took John Lee Dumas, his course free course online.

[00:07:55] Cause I wanted to do it the right way.

[00:07:57] I reached out to people in my life and asked them, you know, what they thought I followed

[00:08:00] the course to a T and yeah, it was born there.

[00:08:04] And I, it just so happened that I had the perfect pool of guests.

[00:08:09] I mean, 30 plus men and women who worked at one of the most prestigious and largest police

[00:08:14] departments in the country.

[00:08:16] So it just, it just kind of, it just kind of worked out.

[00:08:19] I started, started grabbing them and doing interviews.

[00:08:22] Nice.

[00:08:23] Now, when you have a subject matter, like something like, you know, behind the scenes,

[00:08:30] police type stuff, there are certain things there are not allowed to talk about because

[00:08:35] maybe open cases or things that sort.

[00:08:37] So it's like things have a certain time limit or things they are allowed to share or things

[00:08:42] like that.

[00:08:42] Cause I wouldn't know.

[00:08:43] Oh, absolutely, man.

[00:08:45] Absolutely.

[00:08:45] Like I actually, um, so a lot of guys, it's probably half and half, but half the people

[00:08:50] I have on are retired, which is great because every, every case they've had is closed.

[00:08:54] And besides that, they don't have to answer to their employer.

[00:08:57] And I'm sure you're aware police officers are held to a higher standard in their, in their

[00:09:02] employment because of the job we have.

[00:09:04] So you can't, you can't, there's an all, there's a catch all kind of enforceable regulation

[00:09:11] in most police departments where, you know, how's it worded behavior, unbecoming a police

[00:09:17] officer.

[00:09:17] So you couldn't just have an active police officer come on and just be like, you know,

[00:09:23] just out of pocket saying stuff that was like, you know what I mean?

[00:09:26] Like that was just like, Whoa, Hey, that's, uh, that's kind of out of line or whatever.

[00:09:30] So having the retired guys come on is more fun because they can kind of like, and a lot

[00:09:33] of them worked in like the seventies or eighties when it was like, just, it was like the wild

[00:09:38] West.

[00:09:38] What, what was going on out there?

[00:09:41] And nowadays when I have people that are active on, I always say, listen, we use the

[00:09:45] pseudonym and we don't have to name your department, always check with your department, make sure

[00:09:49] it's cool.

[00:09:50] And just realize this is going out to the world.

[00:09:52] I mean, it's going to live on the internet.

[00:09:53] So you got to, you know, bring your a game.

[00:09:56] And if you're sure you can do it, I'd love to have you.

[00:09:58] And it works out 99% of the time.

[00:10:00] I did have one main state police detective.

[00:10:04] Come on.

[00:10:05] And he started great guest.

[00:10:07] He started talking about a case, a murder case.

[00:10:11] And, and he started talking about it early on the podcast.

[00:10:13] So this case was interwoven through the old interview.

[00:10:16] Like I could not get rid of it if I tried and come to find out he, I get a call from

[00:10:22] him two days after it's posted.

[00:10:24] And he's like, Hey, my Sergeant heard the podcast.

[00:10:27] And he said, you better ask that guy to take it down immediately.

[00:10:30] Cause that case is still active.

[00:10:31] Wow.

[00:10:32] Wow.

[00:10:33] Wow.

[00:10:33] That's gotta be tough.

[00:10:34] You think that's a tricky thing there because a lot of, you know, cases are still out there

[00:10:39] might be still active.

[00:10:40] Now, can they reopen old cases and maybe some details that the officer shared, not like saying

[00:10:46] he wanted to share, but he kind of just came out in the podcast and you let it go out there.

[00:10:50] And then, you know, somebody hears it and then the case gets reopened and maybe, you know,

[00:10:55] lawyers get involved and everything else.

[00:10:57] And then, you know, what happens then?

[00:10:59] I mean, it could happen.

[00:11:00] There's always cold case squads, you know, working cases that were never solved.

[00:11:04] But with most stuff like that, these guys are only going to talk about the facts that are already known to,

[00:11:10] they've been publicized to the media and all that.

[00:11:12] They usually won't, like if it's a real serious investigation, they're not gonna, they're not gonna give me all the,

[00:11:18] all the detail.

[00:11:19] That's why having closed cases or guys that are retired is great because they come on and they can just tell you

[00:11:25] everything about the case.

[00:11:27] And a lot of, you know, in a lot of the stuff that guys talk about too, like I was saying, small town,

[00:11:31] I'm from a small town originally, but I've had, I've had deputies from the Midwest come on and you,

[00:11:37] people would never think like, oh, what do those guys even do?

[00:11:40] And then they tell you these crazy stories they go on and you're like, oh my gosh, this is ridiculous.

[00:11:45] Just, just police work in general is you just never know what to expect.

[00:11:48] So it doesn't even have to be a big high profile case.

[00:11:51] It could just be going to a really, really weird call, you know?

[00:11:55] Right.

[00:11:55] Right.

[00:11:55] Speaking of weird calls, you know, the Manhattan case going on right now is record this with the CEO of the healthcare,

[00:12:02] you know, when I was in New York city, not that long ago, I wanted to go take a tour over to the actual murder scene.

[00:12:08] And wife said, that's gross.

[00:12:09] Why would you want to go see that?

[00:12:10] You know, it's like 10 blocks away.

[00:12:12] I just want to just get over there.

[00:12:14] He's there, whatever.

[00:12:15] Piece of history.

[00:12:16] Yeah.

[00:12:17] For the most part, but it kind of a weird way, you know, like I'm not super into true crime.

[00:12:21] Are you into true crime?

[00:12:22] Do you like listening to a lot of true crime podcasts?

[00:12:24] No.

[00:12:24] Oh, you know, it's funny.

[00:12:25] I don't listen.

[00:12:27] I don't listen to true crime and I don't really listen to other police podcasts either.

[00:12:33] I really get a kick out of enjoying my podcast, getting the stories out of people.

[00:12:38] But I don't consume a lot of police content.

[00:12:42] And I also don't hang out with police officers much when I'm not working, which is funny to say.

[00:12:50] But I've been on the job almost 20 years now.

[00:12:53] Oh, wow.

[00:12:55] Yeah, I'm 45.

[00:12:56] And when you're a young copper, like you do, you're very excited about it and all your friends are cops and, you know, the whole thing.

[00:13:03] I'm not saying that's a bad thing.

[00:13:05] But one of the biggest suggestions I get from guests, because one of the final questions I ask is advice for new recruits.

[00:13:10] And one of the biggest things they say is make sure you have plenty of friends that are not cops.

[00:13:16] Don't get into the us versus them, just cops hanging out with cops type of thing.

[00:13:20] So I guess maybe I've overly embraced that.

[00:13:23] But, yeah, I don't – I'm not big into the culture.

[00:13:25] You know, the true crime thing – maybe you could advise me on this, Chris.

[00:13:30] You know, they made – when I went to label my podcast, I had really no – there was no – there wasn't an appropriate label to pick for it.

[00:13:37] Like I couldn't find that fit just right.

[00:13:40] And so when true crime – I think I put in society and culture first.

[00:13:45] Okay.

[00:13:45] But then when true crime came out, and I don't – I didn't know what it was.

[00:13:51] I just said, well, my guests talk about crimes that truly happen.

[00:13:55] So true crime.

[00:13:57] It makes sense.

[00:13:58] It totally does.

[00:13:59] I mean, I would have picked it.

[00:14:00] I would think.

[00:14:00] It makes sense, right?

[00:14:01] But I guess now that I've heard – I've looked into what true crime is, it's much more of like an unraveling of one case over maybe a bunch of episodes.

[00:14:09] And I'm like, I wonder if people are searching and finding mine and going, hey, this isn't really true crime.

[00:14:13] You know what I mean?

[00:14:14] Yeah.

[00:14:15] I mean, those category things can be tricky.

[00:14:17] I know some platforms allow you to pick more than one category.

[00:14:21] I haven't really messed around with that stuff too much.

[00:14:23] I thought mine was under one category.

[00:14:26] I moved it to another category.

[00:14:27] I don't even know what it is under now, but –

[00:14:29] So maybe it doesn't matter all that much.

[00:14:31] Yeah.

[00:14:31] I mean, I don't – you know what?

[00:14:33] It might to some people.

[00:14:34] You always think that like just the other day, the new Superman trailer came out for the new movie and everyone's going nuts about it.

[00:14:42] And I don't know much about the deep behind the scenes about Superman stuff.

[00:14:46] Like the Superman dog.

[00:14:48] I asked legitimately like, what's with the super dog?

[00:14:51] What's that all about?

[00:14:51] There's a super dog?

[00:14:52] Yeah.

[00:14:53] Well, I didn't know.

[00:14:53] You know?

[00:14:54] And then people are going nuts over it saying, oh, you don't know?

[00:14:58] This is crypto from the Superman comic books and blah, blah, blah.

[00:15:01] All this stuff, all this deep backstory that I was like joking like, what's a super dog about?

[00:15:06] And they're taking it literally seriously because it's to them.

[00:15:09] Yeah, they're insulted.

[00:15:10] Yes.

[00:15:10] It's their world.

[00:15:12] It's what they're super excited about.

[00:15:13] They like live and breathe this stuff.

[00:15:15] But for most people who look at it like, well, it's just a movie.

[00:15:17] Who cares?

[00:15:18] You know, whatever.

[00:15:18] But for some people, Comic-Con is their entire world.

[00:15:22] Yeah.

[00:15:22] So, I mean, you think about one thing could be like, oh, it's no big deal.

[00:15:27] But to somebody, it really means the world to them.

[00:15:29] So, you kind of have to be very careful with things you do say.

[00:15:33] And that's what it was podcasting.

[00:15:34] Because I used to like review some podcasts.

[00:15:37] And I remember I reviewed one.

[00:15:39] And they were like so horrible.

[00:15:41] The show was so horrible.

[00:15:43] And I basically was going to be nice.

[00:15:45] But I said like not the greatest thing about their show.

[00:15:47] Like your show is kind of hot garbage, you know?

[00:15:50] Yeah, yeah.

[00:15:50] But, I mean, I think when people ask, can you please check out my show or review my show

[00:15:55] or let me know what you think about my show?

[00:15:57] What they really mean is it's great, right?

[00:16:00] Right?

[00:16:01] Right?

[00:16:01] Yeah, exactly.

[00:16:03] Otherwise, don't say a word.

[00:16:04] Right.

[00:16:05] It's what it is.

[00:16:06] So, be careful when people are out there when they say, hey, please check out my show.

[00:16:09] And you say, do you really want me to check your show out?

[00:16:11] Do you really?

[00:16:12] Are you sure?

[00:16:13] But your show was fantastic, by the way.

[00:16:15] I was checking your show out.

[00:16:16] Oh, thank you.

[00:16:17] When you reached out to me.

[00:16:18] At first, I was kind of thrown off a little bit.

[00:16:20] But like, what?

[00:16:21] What?

[00:16:21] Because you came to me and you reached out to me first.

[00:16:26] And I'm like, well, first, I appreciate that.

[00:16:28] But then I get a lot of people hitting me up.

[00:16:31] And a lot of people who do hit me up are like fake advertisers or fake promoters.

[00:16:36] Or just a lot of fake stuff out there.

[00:16:38] You got to like fish through.

[00:16:41] I get that too, yeah.

[00:16:42] And you're kind of thinking like, well, this guy wants me to sell me this.

[00:16:45] One guy will sell me that.

[00:16:46] And I'm not really, I just kind of like whatever with it.

[00:16:49] But with yours, I was checking it out.

[00:16:50] And I was looking it up.

[00:16:51] And I actually looked up your show.

[00:16:52] And I was like, well, this guy actually has a show.

[00:16:54] For real.

[00:16:54] It's not just an ad or just a fake thing.

[00:16:57] It's for real.

[00:16:58] And then you were telling me some numbers about your show.

[00:17:00] And I was like, wow, this show is like literally like massive.

[00:17:05] When did you first launch the Things Please See?

[00:17:08] When did you start it?

[00:17:10] I want to say 2018 is when I first started it.

[00:17:14] And I, believe me, did not have any kind of numbers to write home about for like a long time.

[00:17:19] And that's what it is.

[00:17:20] I think a lot of people, that's why they always say it was like the first seven to ten episodes.

[00:17:25] People usually quit because they think they're going to get, you know, Joe Rogan numbers or even a quarter of Joe Rogan numbers.

[00:17:31] And then they just say, I am not making no money with this thing.

[00:17:34] It's not going anywhere.

[00:17:35] No one's listening.

[00:17:36] And, you know, see you later.

[00:17:37] I'm out of here.

[00:17:39] Do you recall like the first few episodes?

[00:17:42] What kind of numbers you were getting?

[00:17:44] Yeah, I can at least recall that, that timeframe.

[00:17:48] I remember probably the first, first dozen or so episodes I was getting maybe on a launch.

[00:17:59] You know, like when you launch, launch the podcast, you kind of get your kind of lifts the whole, the whole boat lifts up.

[00:18:04] And then it goes back down until the next time you publish a podcast.

[00:18:09] So like the first, I can only remember the first couple months.

[00:18:12] I can't remember the first week.

[00:18:12] Now I'm thinking about it.

[00:18:13] But I remember in the first couple of months, I had a spike on a launch day and the spike was 75.

[00:18:20] And I was out of my mind excited.

[00:18:23] I was like, damn.

[00:18:24] And really that 75 people from a podcast, it has like no, I'm not a celebrity and it has no promotion.

[00:18:30] You know, someone like on a launch day, somebody, but normally that was a spike.

[00:18:34] And then it all went back down to like 2025.

[00:18:38] Like.

[00:18:39] Oh, the very next episode.

[00:18:41] Like the first episode was high.

[00:18:42] And then like the next episode.

[00:18:44] Yeah.

[00:18:45] Like one in the middle, like one after a couple months was, I think my first, I was, I was getting, I was definitely getting like me twenties or thirties an episode when I first started for like the first couple months.

[00:18:56] And then I had a spike of like 75.

[00:18:58] And I was like, you know, like every time to this day, when I get spikes like that, I'm like, it happened.

[00:19:05] I'm blowing up.

[00:19:06] And then it just goes right back to normal.

[00:19:08] And you're like, I actually contacted Libsyn once because I had such a big spike and I wanted to know, and by the way, I don't know who anybody hosts with, but Libsyn is really great this way.

[00:19:19] You can actually just email their team, make a ticket and they will email with you and they'll look into stuff.

[00:19:24] So I said, Hey, I had, um, this was a gigantic spike.

[00:19:28] It was, I think just shy of 4,000 downloads in one day.

[00:19:33] And that was double of what I was getting for podcast launch.

[00:19:38] And I wrote to him, I said, this is, what is this?

[00:19:41] Is this, did somebody pick up the show and just, you know, I don't know how it works with maybe somebody indexed it.

[00:19:46] And that just took all the episodes a bunch of times over.

[00:19:50] And they wrote back and they said, no, those are legitimate downloads.

[00:19:55] And I was like, well, do you think I got a, a mention somewhere?

[00:19:58] Did somebody mention the show?

[00:19:59] Oh, like some, some cop celebrity or something.

[00:20:02] And they're like, Oh, maybe like I could, I never found out.

[00:20:04] I could never find why.

[00:20:05] And it went right back down.

[00:20:07] It went right back down.

[00:20:08] So, so is that all just, okay.

[00:20:10] We see 4,000 downloads.

[00:20:11] Was that over like a bunch of different episodes or was just one episode hit, took off?

[00:20:16] It was the episode for that day in particular was higher than normal.

[00:20:20] And then all the rest of them got bumped up to like multiple times over.

[00:20:24] Interesting.

[00:20:24] That's fantastic.

[00:20:26] You know, we always try to look into our downloads and try to replicate what happened.

[00:20:29] Like you'll see one episode will shoot up and you're like, man, if I can just, just figure

[00:20:33] out what I did on that episode and make it happen again.

[00:20:36] But I know that you do a lot of, a lot of guest interviews and being that you do a lot of

[00:20:40] guest interviews, do you think that possibly one of the guests were more popular than

[00:20:43] some other guests?

[00:20:44] Maybe it could have been.

[00:20:45] Yeah.

[00:20:45] I mean, I looked at that and it wasn't like a notable cause I've had people on like

[00:20:48] Joe Kenda from homicide hunter from discovery channel came on and you know, like the

[00:20:53] guy who took over writing for Tom Clancy, he's a retired U.S.

[00:20:56] Marshall, he came on.

[00:20:57] So, and then like Derek LaVassure who won big brother 2014, he has crime weekly podcast,

[00:21:01] which is, you know, millions of downloads a month.

[00:21:04] He came on and those people all had the real, like the spike you would think like, okay, I'm

[00:21:09] getting their audience a little bit, but this particular day there was nothing, nothing

[00:21:14] standout.

[00:21:15] I mean, the guest was fantastic, but they were not famous and had no notoriety.

[00:21:20] So that's what made it even weirder.

[00:21:21] You know, I do know that for a while that a lot of us indie podcasters are always, always

[00:21:27] thinking that if I just get that big name guest on my show, that, that my numbers will just

[00:21:32] skyrocket.

[00:21:33] And, and to a lot of them, they're very disappointed when they find out that it doesn't always

[00:21:39] work out that way.

[00:21:39] No.

[00:21:40] Because for one, the guest-

[00:21:42] Shorted Joe Rogan, it doesn't work.

[00:21:43] Well, the, there's no guarantee the guest is even going to share the interview at all.

[00:21:48] I mean, there's no promise.

[00:21:50] A big name celebrity, you're lucky even to get them on the show, let alone share anything.

[00:21:53] Are you kidding me?

[00:21:55] So that usually doesn't work out.

[00:21:56] And then I see some people get very disappointed.

[00:21:57] I know a guy that was, was so excited.

[00:22:00] He was telling me about this new interview.

[00:22:01] He was going to get some big name or not massive name, but fairly big name.

[00:22:05] And he was all excited about it.

[00:22:07] And this is years ago.

[00:22:08] So, and then he, the very next day, like the very, the very same day it released, he was

[00:22:13] like pissed off and upset.

[00:22:15] I'm like, you just released the episode four hours ago.

[00:22:18] What do you expect?

[00:22:19] I mean, you know, Richard, come on.

[00:22:21] Yeah.

[00:22:21] You gotta, you gotta have to like, most episodes take at least a week or so to kind of build

[00:22:25] up some kind of traction.

[00:22:27] And then in fact, the guy didn't share it because he's too busy.

[00:22:29] He doesn't care.

[00:22:30] You're lucky you got him in the first place.

[00:22:31] So I don't think putting all your eggs into the big name basket is a way to really boost

[00:22:38] your show.

[00:22:38] And even when you do, who, who are you?

[00:22:42] Who is the audience there for in the first place?

[00:22:44] Are they there for you?

[00:22:45] Are they there for your guests?

[00:22:46] Like, what are they more interested in?

[00:22:48] So that, that's why I think doing solo episodes is a good way to kind of get your audience

[00:22:53] to pay attention more to you and less about the actual guest.

[00:22:57] And I know you were talking about solo episodes and how you done a few of them, but I think

[00:23:03] you were curious about doing more of that.

[00:23:05] Is that, I feel you out right there on that?

[00:23:07] Yeah.

[00:23:08] And exactly what you're saying.

[00:23:10] Like I said, I'm a consumer of podcast coach podcasts.

[00:23:13] I just like them.

[00:23:14] I find them fascinating.

[00:23:14] I love to hear what other podcasts are doing, how they built up and what worked for them

[00:23:19] and, and guys like you who have like really good tips and tricks that, that work.

[00:23:24] But it, it, like I had Joe Kenda on the homicide hunter.

[00:23:28] He's done a bunch of series of that super famous in the police world.

[00:23:31] It ended up like I did some shorts with him and one of the shorts got 850,000 views.

[00:23:36] Wow.

[00:23:37] You know what everybody cared about in that?

[00:23:39] And those shorts and those comments.

[00:23:40] What's that?

[00:23:41] More Joe Kenda, not my podcast.

[00:23:43] They were, they were, they were just like, Hey, or when are you having him on again?

[00:23:48] Let me know.

[00:23:48] Or, Hey, is he, is he part of the show now?

[00:23:50] Or where's the rest of the interview?

[00:23:51] Why is this short?

[00:23:52] He's the guy's been interviewed a hundred times.

[00:23:54] It was just tons of love for Joe, which I shared with him, which he appreciated because

[00:23:58] he's not on any social media.

[00:23:59] God bless his heart.

[00:23:59] But I saw no joke, zero bump, zero bump in my audio podcast.

[00:24:07] The initial episode, the one episode he's on does well.

[00:24:12] But besides that, I did not gain anything noticeable.

[00:24:16] I've had a steady stream of gaining listeners, but there was no spike of followers because

[00:24:22] of him.

[00:24:22] And it just made them want him to come on.

[00:24:26] They, and they could have cared less about, I mean, the people were even like, you know,

[00:24:29] throwing shots at me in the, like, who's this guy interviewing?

[00:24:32] It was like, it was like the opposite.

[00:24:34] Right.

[00:24:35] So they, they love him.

[00:24:37] His audience loves him and I get it, but it doesn't necessarily mean like I, it doesn't

[00:24:42] necessarily mean they, they care anything about me.

[00:24:44] Why would they?

[00:24:44] Now, that being said, I do have a core group of people that, that listen to the show and

[00:24:50] they, and like, I reached out to you and we were chatting a little bit about the solo

[00:24:53] stuff.

[00:24:53] And I said, it just makes sense that, you know, if people get to know you a little bit

[00:24:58] more, they're, they're, they're even more into your podcast.

[00:25:02] And I've always, I've shared little personal stuff along the way, like beginning of the show,

[00:25:06] I might throw something in there.

[00:25:07] I shared about having to put a dog down and stuff like that.

[00:25:09] And I get tons of emails when I share personal stuff.

[00:25:12] So I kind of surveyed the audience to see like, Hey, if I was going to do extra content

[00:25:16] and also as a shield against like, if I don't have an interview, I can't put nothing up.

[00:25:20] Cause if there's a hole, it screws up my downloads.

[00:25:25] So I want to be able to do something.

[00:25:26] And a lot of them in the top two was share more your personal stuff.

[00:25:30] And I was shocked.

[00:25:32] I'm like, Oh, okay.

[00:25:33] I don't, but where do you go from there?

[00:25:35] Cause I'm not, like I was saying, I am an, I have an entertainment podcast and my audience

[00:25:41] a lot of the audience are other cops who are, would be considered experts as much as I am

[00:25:47] in law enforcement.

[00:25:48] So I can't really, I can't really give them anything, any like technical stuff to do with

[00:25:55] police work that they don't already know or that they would even care about.

[00:25:58] So my, my solo episodes kind of have to be a little bit more creative.

[00:26:04] Like I'm going to have to like, I thought about what about the history of police equipment?

[00:26:08] Cause I think that's fascinating.

[00:26:08] Like the Billy club, where'd that come from?

[00:26:10] Who used that?

[00:26:10] What they used to call it.

[00:26:11] How does using it change over the years?

[00:26:13] Poor Billy is where the guy.

[00:26:15] Right.

[00:26:16] So like, I was like, maybe that.

[00:26:17] And then like, I was thinking maybe I have my wife come on.

[00:26:19] Cause she's, she's been on my podcast, my old podcast back in the day and people loved

[00:26:23] her.

[00:26:23] She's got a great voice and she's very smart and she could talk about what it's like

[00:26:28] in our household being married to a cop.

[00:26:29] Like that might be interesting just as like, you know, just little one-off episodes,

[00:26:33] maybe 10, 20 minutes long.

[00:26:34] I've been thinking about trying that just to test the waters, but I'm also Chris, to be

[00:26:39] perfectly honest, very nervous to try it.

[00:26:41] Oh dude, dude.

[00:26:42] Tell me back.

[00:26:43] Cause my other podcast, the Chris Christine show, it was Christina and I who did a, did

[00:26:47] a show and we did interviews together and everything was together and everything.

[00:26:50] And when I started this show, the only reason I started the show in the first place was because

[00:26:54] people were asking me about that show.

[00:26:56] Like, how did I make that?

[00:26:57] How'd I do it?

[00:26:58] How'd I, how do I get recording like questions and things?

[00:27:01] And I was like, well, I guess I can start a second show about it.

[00:27:04] And so it was going to be a full solo show, you know, and the very first episode I jumped

[00:27:08] in and started like just rambling and going off and just start talking and stuff.

[00:27:12] And it was very nervous.

[00:27:13] I think I went through like most of my material in the first like real five minutes, like

[00:27:17] right?

[00:27:17] All fast.

[00:27:19] And I got through it and stuff and start playing around.

[00:27:21] I think that's the more you do.

[00:27:22] It's like riding a bike, man.

[00:27:23] The more you do it, the more comfortable you get.

[00:27:26] And the beauty about doing solo shows is what I love so much about doing them is that

[00:27:30] you can record it anytime you want.

[00:27:33] Any day of the week, anytime of the day.

[00:27:36] And, and if, if what I do is you can edit as you go.

[00:27:40] So if you say something that was totally like, how is that?

[00:27:42] I don't want to say it.

[00:27:43] You can like go back, edit, chop it out and start over right from that take and then stitch

[00:27:48] it all together to the end.

[00:27:49] Or you can do it all in one shot and edit later, however you want to do it.

[00:27:51] But I like to kind of, cause I'll say things and I'd be like, that was so stupid.

[00:27:55] Why did I say that?

[00:27:56] I'll go back.

[00:27:56] I'll cut that part out and just do that line right over again.

[00:27:59] As if nobody even knew it even happened.

[00:28:02] And, and that way, because you can't really do that.

[00:28:05] Like in an interview show, like, hang on a second, Steve, we take that line again real

[00:28:10] quick here.

[00:28:11] No, you can't do that while you're in the middle of a conversation.

[00:28:13] So that's one thing I figured out early on when I was doing the thing myself as a solo

[00:28:18] thing, but also the fact that you can do anytime you want.

[00:28:20] You're not related on like time zones or guest interviews or guests flaking out and,

[00:28:25] and all that kind of stuff.

[00:28:26] You can batch record.

[00:28:27] And I, and I do know when we had guests on, we were constantly like, I think at one point,

[00:28:32] like we were doing one every week.

[00:28:33] So I think we had like a full month, a month and a half of like backlog of guest interviews

[00:28:38] that we're just going to release.

[00:28:39] How far back do you record your guest interviews?

[00:28:42] It varies.

[00:28:43] I love to have three or four in the queue just in case there's a flub up or I have one good

[00:28:49] to go.

[00:28:50] But sometimes it's week to week.

[00:28:51] Sometimes it's, I'll have like two or three cancellations and then I'll have one Saturday

[00:28:55] and it's supposed to go Wednesday and that's it.

[00:28:59] So if this one doesn't get, if I don't have this, if I don't, if I don't get this done,

[00:29:03] then we'll have anything.

[00:29:04] And very rarely have I had to like, you know, do an encore episode or, or whatever, but yeah,

[00:29:11] it can, it can vary.

[00:29:13] I try to have three or four in the can.

[00:29:14] Okay.

[00:29:15] Yeah.

[00:29:15] I knew, I knew a guy that had, I thought he said he had like 50 or 60 in the can.

[00:29:20] Oh my gosh.

[00:29:21] Because he was doing like three interviews, three or four interviews a week.

[00:29:25] And if you do, if you do a weekly episode, it just stacks up.

[00:29:28] It stacks up.

[00:29:29] And they keep telling, I think he was telling me his guests were telling him like, where's

[00:29:32] my episode?

[00:29:33] I, I recorded with you like a year ago.

[00:29:36] Yeah.

[00:29:36] Where is that episode at?

[00:29:38] So I think he started like doubling up, like releasing two a week.

[00:29:41] And I know, I think I saw one podcaster.

[00:29:42] It was doing like all interviews is probably during COVID, I think.

[00:29:46] And so he had so many that he was releasing daily episodes because he had, he's had to catch

[00:29:51] up with all the ones he had backlogged, you know?

[00:29:53] And I think the reason why people do it is because they think that now they have like

[00:29:57] a content, they can keep going.

[00:29:58] So they're already kind of like future proofing their, their show thinking I can push this

[00:30:02] to another month or two or three down the road and I'm still good to go.

[00:30:07] And they're always still chill chasing whatever guests they want.

[00:30:10] And, and sometimes, you know, sadly they'll just take on anybody, anybody with a pulse

[00:30:15] because I need something.

[00:30:17] I need something for Wednesday.

[00:30:19] Yeah.

[00:30:20] You know, anybody that can talk about whatever, come on.

[00:30:22] But I think what happens is that if you start doing a show, like your show is all in one

[00:30:28] genre, your, your show is all police and police stuff.

[00:30:30] But if you have a interview show, that's just interviewing rando anybody's one day, you

[00:30:35] got a doctor on next day, you got a golfer on next day.

[00:30:38] You got so, you know, just everybody, anybody.

[00:30:41] I think from a listener standpoint, I don't know how many times it's like buying a bag

[00:30:46] of potato chips, like the, the, the variety pack, you know, and you go in there and, but

[00:30:52] you only like Doritos, but why would you buy a whole pack of all the other nonsense stuff?

[00:30:55] But you only want the Doritos.

[00:30:56] Right.

[00:30:57] So, so why, why, why buy the variety pack?

[00:31:00] I'm just going to get the Doritos off the, off the shelf.

[00:31:03] So I think when I think of interviews that do like interview everybody, I always kind

[00:31:07] of go back to thinking about the whole variety pack is why would you, I mean, I know some

[00:31:11] people like that.

[00:31:11] I mean, some people it's their thing, you know, or whatever.

[00:31:13] But I think that niching, niching down does help because your audience is going to come

[00:31:21] in for whatever they're interested in.

[00:31:23] And if you're interviewing, you know, pro golfers and you like golf, then you're probably going

[00:31:30] to stick around with that versus, versus a show interviewing, you know, a golfer one day

[00:31:35] and a doctor another day and a dentist the other day and whatever, whatever.

[00:31:39] They think that could hurt yourself from a listener standpoint.

[00:31:42] I always kind of think of what the listener, like the listener's journey, like why would

[00:31:46] they press play?

[00:31:47] Why would they listen?

[00:31:49] What makes them stick around?

[00:31:50] Things they're drawn into.

[00:31:52] And I know that some podcasters can get bored sticking around with the same content.

[00:31:57] So how have you been able to stick around, stick with the same theme of content and not get

[00:32:03] bored?

[00:32:04] However many episodes you've been into, you've probably been to a lot of episodes by now.

[00:32:07] Yeah.

[00:32:08] Over, I think we're on two, two 27, something like that.

[00:32:12] I did take a big break at one point, but I think just, I think just because of the diversity

[00:32:19] of, in police work of, of what you can talk about, cause there's a tons of different specialties.

[00:32:25] There's a tons, the calls that people go on are all, it could be anything from, you know,

[00:32:31] finding a dead body in a bizarre position or helping a kid get out of a bad situation.

[00:32:37] And later on being asked to go to his graduation, like, you know what I mean?

[00:32:40] Like there's, it is such a variety of stories that I hear that it makes it, it, I never know

[00:32:46] what I'm going to get when I sit down, just like going, just like signing on in the cruiser.

[00:32:50] I never know what I'm going to get when I have a guest on.

[00:32:52] So it, and police officers are very driven people.

[00:32:56] So a lot of them have now started companies.

[00:32:59] They have bestselling books.

[00:33:01] They have, we can talk about that journey, transitioning from police to like being an

[00:33:04] author.

[00:33:04] And it just, it, that has never come up.

[00:33:07] It's always been, there's always been so much to talk about with cops.

[00:33:11] And I guess I've never thought about it, but now I feel really grateful for that.

[00:33:14] Cause it really is.

[00:33:15] We never run short on stuff.

[00:33:17] That's great.

[00:33:18] And then he says there was always a wide variety of different things, you know, like

[00:33:21] being a detective or working with canines or SWAT or, you know, in that kind of stuff.

[00:33:29] I, I, I think that it gives you a wide canvas of things to talk about, but you're still within

[00:33:33] that niche of police work and police type stuff.

[00:33:37] Has there ever been a guest come on that's told a story that's so crazy that you, you

[00:33:43] almost like, like, wow, it just blew your way.

[00:33:46] They things you never heard before.

[00:33:48] Yeah.

[00:33:49] Ralph Friedman.

[00:33:50] I mean, there's been a lot, but Ralph, man, there has been a lot, but Ralph Friedman in

[00:33:55] particular, he was the most decorated and had the most arrests of any police officer in

[00:33:59] New York city history.

[00:34:02] And he had some stories back from like the, I think it was the seventies, eighties when

[00:34:07] he was a cop that he told them and I wanted them out of my mind.

[00:34:13] I was like, dude, I mean, I can, I'll, I could share, I don't know how PG the show is.

[00:34:18] Well, we'll try, we'll try, I call it radio friendly, you know?

[00:34:21] Okay.

[00:34:22] Well, one of them, I'll share one of them that just was horrifying and it's not, it's not

[00:34:26] like pervert.

[00:34:27] One of them is very perverse, like wildly perverse.

[00:34:30] I won't even touch it.

[00:34:32] But one of them, he went to an apartment and he had a standoff with the guy and the guy

[00:34:37] was throwing knives at them and stuff.

[00:34:39] And he had from like behind the counter or wherever.

[00:34:41] And the guy had a three-year-old girl by the arm and he had a butcher's knife.

[00:34:47] And he was saying, if you guys come any closer, I'm going to kill her.

[00:34:51] So they were standing there, standing there, standing there.

[00:34:53] And eventually the guy just chopped her arm off and kicked her aside and they ended up

[00:34:58] killing the guy and the little girl passed away.

[00:35:01] And I have little kids.

[00:35:03] So he's telling the story and I'm like, don't want to have that in my mind.

[00:35:06] But that was, that was like the tamer of the things he dealt with in his career,

[00:35:12] which makes begs a question.

[00:35:13] How, how did you keep your, your, how'd you keep your mind doing like 35 years as a New

[00:35:19] York city cop, seeing stuff like that?

[00:35:21] You know what I mean?

[00:35:23] Well, I don't think that's every day though.

[00:35:25] I don't think you run into that stuff every day.

[00:35:26] Do you?

[00:35:27] I mean, no, I think events like that for a police officer, like in your best guess,

[00:35:33] how often does it happen in a person's career?

[00:35:36] That's something like that, that, that crazy.

[00:35:38] Well, in the city, I mean, you were certainly going to see,

[00:35:42] you're going to drink from a fire hose of police work in where I work.

[00:35:46] If you work rural or even just like most police departments in the country or small towns,

[00:35:49] you will see very disturbing things, but it's the frequency is, is I think they say it's

[00:35:54] 20 or 30 fold what a normal person will see in their life.

[00:35:57] Okay.

[00:35:58] But it's, it's much less than like a city.

[00:36:01] Like, did he go to a call like that every day?

[00:36:03] No.

[00:36:03] But did he go to dozens of calls like that?

[00:36:06] Yes.

[00:36:06] Which to me is insane.

[00:36:08] Even over 35 years, it's like, wow, nuts.

[00:36:13] Because most people, like, if you think about it, most people don't even really anymore these

[00:36:17] days, don't even really see a dead body unless it's at like a, at a awake or a funeral.

[00:36:24] Oh yeah.

[00:36:24] Yeah.

[00:36:25] Totally.

[00:36:25] Yeah.

[00:36:25] I mean, I mean, I mean, it freaked me out.

[00:36:28] I mean, I saw their dead body and kind of, it kind of, it kind of freaked me out.

[00:36:31] You know, I was on the, I was on the road coming back and I saw this guy laying on the ground

[00:36:36] and, and turns out he was dead, you know, and it kind of freaked me out a little bit.

[00:36:40] And, uh.

[00:36:41] Totally.

[00:36:41] But.

[00:36:43] Yeah.

[00:36:44] So, but that, that's something that, that for me, like, I didn't want to get into that

[00:36:47] kind of, that kind of field, you know?

[00:36:49] I mean, I started to a little bit back in college a long time ago and want to become a detective

[00:36:53] and all that stuff.

[00:36:54] And.

[00:36:54] Oh, nice.

[00:36:55] Going through school and all that stuff.

[00:36:56] And, you know, all the usual stuff you take, you know, and, and police training and things

[00:37:00] of that sort and all that.

[00:37:01] But, but I'm not, I'm not in law enforcement, you know, just the opposite actually, but.

[00:37:05] But.

[00:37:05] Good for you.

[00:37:06] But, uh, but no, I respect all that stuff and I have high respect for anybody in military

[00:37:10] or police work and all that kind of stuff, things they have to go through and the things

[00:37:14] that, that I know the stories are crazy out there.

[00:37:17] And I think it does give you content for days, having things to talk about when it comes

[00:37:22] to law enforcement and all the crazies that are out there.

[00:37:26] With, with social media being such a big component with so many of these like behind the scenes

[00:37:32] stories, because I think one thing about your podcast is what it does with any good podcast

[00:37:37] is that it gives the listener stories and things that we normally don't have access to or hear

[00:37:44] about or see on the regular.

[00:37:46] So I think that's one good thing about having a really niche podcast, what makes a good podcast

[00:37:50] is giving things that most people don't have access to.

[00:37:53] So I think that's probably have helped your podcast catapult into the massive success that

[00:38:00] it is.

[00:38:01] Absolutely.

[00:38:01] Yeah.

[00:38:02] And know what?

[00:38:02] It's really helped me too with, um, with like people who are interested in like sponsoring

[00:38:07] it, you know, cause if they find out I have a niche audience of just who they want, it

[00:38:13] might not be a million people listening, but it's, you know, I get 25 to 30,000 downloads

[00:38:20] a month and to them, and that might, you know, that, that might, cause I have a big back catalog

[00:38:26] and it's evergreen.

[00:38:27] So people can, can binge that might dilute down to, you know, three to 5,000 listeners, something

[00:38:33] in that range.

[00:38:34] They don't really care.

[00:38:36] Like they, they, they just know how powerful podcast advertising is.

[00:38:40] Cause you're getting right in somebody's ear.

[00:38:41] You know, they know my audience, trust me.

[00:38:43] And I actually don't take, I typically don't take sponsors that don't align with my audience.

[00:38:49] And it's, it's helped me get some, some pretty good, like some pretty good sponsors, sponsorships

[00:38:55] for the show.

[00:38:56] So, and you know, I, I took a hit like we all did with that Apple.

[00:39:01] Yeah.

[00:39:02] They do update, they updated the Apple, I to Apple podcast or Apple.

[00:39:06] I rip the soul out of me.

[00:39:08] And how much of a hit did you take?

[00:39:09] Cause I, I didn't see much of a hit when I, I got mine, but 30%, 30% off.

[00:39:15] So, so those who don't know what Apple did was that the way they used to actually count

[00:39:19] downloads, I believe that they would download episode or episodes that weren't listened

[00:39:25] to and, or all the episodes or no one that happened was, I think was if you took a break

[00:39:30] from listening to the podcast and came back to listening to the podcast, it would download

[00:39:35] all the episodes you missed even if it was years back or whatever, I think.

[00:39:39] And that would look like at the podcaster level, it would look like a big spike of downloads,

[00:39:44] even though just download them all to your phone, you may not even listen to them or not.

[00:39:47] Now I think what they do is that they only play or only count the download of an episode

[00:39:52] that's actually played or at least recently, recently downloaded.

[00:39:56] It's only going to download the most recent stuff, not your entire back catalog, if I

[00:40:00] understand correctly, which does, which does save the person's phone from being overclogged

[00:40:04] with a bunch of episodes they're not going to ever listen to.

[00:40:07] And then also too, as the podcaster or us, it actually looks more like an accurate number

[00:40:13] than a false number.

[00:40:15] I think that's what you really want in the end.

[00:40:17] I know everybody loves big numbers.

[00:40:18] Like I love big numbers too, but I think I'd rather have a more accurate number of someone

[00:40:22] who actually listens.

[00:40:23] So I see these numbers, it's like, oh, these are actual real people.

[00:40:26] These numbers actually are as close to real people as possible versus all the inflated numbers.

[00:40:32] I know I've done episodes on this before, but there are a lot of bots and a lot of podcast

[00:40:38] promoters out there that will sell you like downloads or whatever and things like that.

[00:40:44] And I think I've even had Rob from Libsyn on.

[00:40:47] We were talking about that.

[00:40:48] I heard that one.

[00:40:48] That was a great episode.

[00:40:49] Oh, thank you, man.

[00:40:50] Yeah, talking about all the fake stuff out there.

[00:40:52] Because he works with the advertisers directly selling like real money here.

[00:40:57] Yeah, they investigate that stuff.

[00:40:58] Yeah, because it's like it's fraud.

[00:41:00] It's all fraud.

[00:41:01] It's like you're basically getting fake numbers.

[00:41:03] Now you're going to put it in front of advertisers saying, I got this big audience.

[00:41:06] Here, give me a sponsor.

[00:41:07] Give me some money.

[00:41:08] But all that's just fake stuff anyway.

[00:41:11] So I think for most indie podcasters aren't even at a level to even think about getting your

[00:41:18] traditional like ads and sponsors.

[00:41:20] But there are some sponsors that will work with much smaller audiences.

[00:41:24] If the podcast is niche enough and that the audience would actually use and appreciate the product and things of that sort.

[00:41:35] So it's not always like, you know, they say like, I don't have enough downloads to get a sponsor.

[00:41:40] You can try somebody a little smaller and just see.

[00:41:44] But also at the end of the day, you also have to deliver too.

[00:41:47] So if a sponsor pays you money to talk about their product and the sponsor gets absolutely no return on investment, they may not want to.

[00:41:57] They may not re-up.

[00:41:59] Right.

[00:41:59] So you have to kind of think about those things too.

[00:42:02] But I had a guest on that long ago and he was telling me that the only way to make money from a podcast is to have your listeners buy something.

[00:42:10] Whether it's something you sell or something an advertiser that sells through your podcast is that your listeners are physically buying something.

[00:42:17] And I did hear that podcast listeners, audio podcast listeners have more buying power than YouTube viewers or TikTok watchers or Instagram real watchers.

[00:42:29] Because you think about the demographic that watches a lot of YouTube and Instagram and TikTok.

[00:42:33] Usually it's younger people just bored, doom scrolling, things like that.

[00:42:37] But with an audio podcast, you're more invested.

[00:42:40] You're usually you're usually busier people are kind of running around doing stuff while you're listening.

[00:42:45] Because I know I listen.

[00:42:46] I'm working.

[00:42:46] I'm doing something.

[00:42:48] I'm actually working.

[00:42:49] But if I was unemployed and I was sitting at home all day, you just like looking at your phone, scrolling through stuff, whatever.

[00:42:56] I mean, it's fun.

[00:42:57] You get the eyeballs.

[00:42:58] But people who are unemployed usually don't have any money.

[00:43:01] Yeah, exactly.

[00:43:02] So good luck selling them anything.

[00:43:04] So what are some big products that you've sold on your show?

[00:43:07] Other than like the regular generic ads, but like things that sponsor-wise that you've mentioned on your show.

[00:43:15] I had a startup holster company.

[00:43:18] Avid Holsters, come on.

[00:43:19] That makes sense.

[00:43:20] Makes sense for your show.

[00:43:21] Yeah.

[00:43:21] Totally.

[00:43:22] And he gave me the schematics for it and the whole thing.

[00:43:26] They were in production.

[00:43:27] And I saw what it could do.

[00:43:28] It could unclip from your holster and like clip into your car or clip into something called a lockbox.

[00:43:33] Wow, that's an ingenious idea.

[00:43:35] So, so neat.

[00:43:37] And paid me up front for, for I think three months.

[00:43:42] And then it, and the guy's the nicest guy in the world too.

[00:43:45] And it just didn't launch.

[00:43:47] It was a disaster because I was putting a link to pre-order in my podcast and people were going to his site.

[00:43:55] And then he never launched the holster.

[00:43:57] I was like, brother, brother, this is not good for my credibility.

[00:44:03] And, you know, like I said, he has a full-time job.

[00:44:06] He, he got into engineering this thing.

[00:44:08] He hired people to help, put all of his own money into it, bought ad space with me.

[00:44:13] And then, then nothing.

[00:44:15] So that was the last time I had like a, like a pretty legit sponsor.

[00:44:20] I've had one-offs, like one-off, like from guy who was a fan of the show,

[00:44:24] who was, uh, worked for like a headhunting company.

[00:44:28] And something to do with, I think they, I think they had insurance for law enforcement, something.

[00:44:34] And he just loved the show and was like, Hey, I just want to give you a, he's like,

[00:44:38] I'll just give you like 450 bucks and just give us, give us a little ad on your next episode.

[00:44:43] I'm like, okay.

[00:44:44] Yeah.

[00:44:45] I mean, that sounds pretty easy to do, you know?

[00:44:47] Yeah.

[00:44:47] That happened one time.

[00:44:49] Did he have like contracts written out or anything written down in paper, like,

[00:44:52] like agreements or is it all like a verbal handshake kind of thing?

[00:44:55] Just email.

[00:44:57] Email.

[00:44:57] And I actually have one right now.

[00:44:59] I had brother, I had a huge one in the books for last summer.

[00:45:05] And it was with AT&T first net because that's for first responders.

[00:45:10] Oh, and they, they came in and they said, we have a bunch of ad money.

[00:45:15] Like I got emailed by an agency representing them.

[00:45:18] And they're like, we have a bunch of ad money.

[00:45:20] We want to hit podcasts.

[00:45:21] We want to spread it out.

[00:45:22] Like they weren't looking for giant podcasts.

[00:45:23] They were looking like for podcasts in the field and kind of spreading it out.

[00:45:27] They want to know my numbers and everything else.

[00:45:28] And I was talking with friends about it and they were like guys in the industry and entertainment.

[00:45:33] And they're like, they're like, AT&T has money and they want to spend on your show.

[00:45:37] They're like, tell them you'll, you'll integrate, you know, you'll put a link, you'll do social media posts.

[00:45:42] You will, if they have a get, if they have someone who works there that actually will be a good police guest with stories, you will invite that person on the show.

[00:45:50] So I did the whole thing.

[00:45:51] I typed up this whole thing.

[00:45:52] It was going to be $5,500 a month for six months.

[00:45:55] Wow.

[00:45:56] Wow.

[00:45:56] Which is enormous.

[00:45:58] Way more money than I would normally get.

[00:46:01] And they were like, yep.

[00:46:02] I gave them the options.

[00:46:03] One of them, the lowest one was like $2,200.

[00:46:04] The highest one was like $5,500.

[00:46:07] I heard back two weeks later.

[00:46:09] Yep.

[00:46:09] Legal's writing it up right now.

[00:46:11] Excited to work with you.

[00:46:11] Yada, yada.

[00:46:12] Great.

[00:46:13] Email a week later.

[00:46:14] It's almost finished.

[00:46:15] Can't wait to get started.

[00:46:16] Okay, great.

[00:46:17] Now we're running into fall.

[00:46:19] I reach out and go, what's up?

[00:46:22] I've already spent this money in my mind.

[00:46:23] I'm like, I'm going to be rich, baby.

[00:46:26] So I'm like, what's going on?

[00:46:28] And they're like, oh yeah, there was, the campaign is kind of stalled a little bit.

[00:46:33] And we're kind of looking at it now.

[00:46:36] And I'm like, weird.

[00:46:37] So I actually end up going on FirstNet's, all their social media.

[00:46:41] And it's all, they have like no followers.

[00:46:42] They do no ad.

[00:46:44] Like there's nothing going with FirstNet.

[00:46:46] Like they never started.

[00:46:48] So then at this point, I'm kind of like, the wind is out of my sails.

[00:46:51] I'm like, this ain't happening.

[00:46:52] It ain't happening.

[00:46:54] And sure enough, I reached out three weeks later and I never heard from them again.

[00:46:58] Oh man.

[00:46:59] It just, they lost the whole, the whole campaign went away and they, they just didn't do it.

[00:47:04] But I was like, oh my gosh, this is amazing.

[00:47:07] Yeah.

[00:47:08] It could happen with anything really.

[00:47:09] I mean, even a, even a smaller company or a smaller, you know, somebody says they have

[00:47:14] a startup, something or other, they want to advertise in your show to get their thing launched.

[00:47:17] Like you said, with the holster thing and you know, things could, you know, nothing

[00:47:20] could happen out of that too.

[00:47:22] So it's, it's one of those things where it's a business.

[00:47:25] I mean, you think about it, I mean, podcasting, it's kind of like a business where you have

[00:47:29] to kind of, you know, see what happens out there.

[00:47:31] And, and, and, you know, it's like your, it's like sales, I guess, if you're in sales,

[00:47:35] you know, it's commission.

[00:47:36] You're going to use sale.

[00:47:37] You make good money.

[00:47:38] You don't, there's good months, bad months.

[00:47:39] It's kind of the way it goes.

[00:47:41] And I know that you do run a lot of regular ads on your show.

[00:47:43] Do you make money off of those?

[00:47:44] Are they just kind of part of the thing or what?

[00:47:46] Yeah, Chris recently it has.

[00:47:48] I don't know if they changed the formula.

[00:47:50] I'm hoping they didn't make a mistake, but my payouts the last two months have been almost

[00:47:55] double.

[00:47:57] So when I started losing, when I was at the height pre Apple adjusting the downloads,

[00:48:03] I had one month where I was like 41,000.

[00:48:05] I was just going up and up 41,000 downloads in a month.

[00:48:08] And I was like, damn, this is, this is getting good.

[00:48:10] And then it just from December, 2023, it every month that went, it stepped down,

[00:48:15] stepped down, stepped down.

[00:48:16] And then just recently the new iPhone came out and it went another drop.

[00:48:20] I'm like, whoa.

[00:48:21] And then I'm like, everybody got the new iPhone, updated their apps,

[00:48:25] probably updated the podcast app.

[00:48:27] And that was because at the beginning of that happening, I thought I was just stinky.

[00:48:31] I was like, oh my gosh, it's happening.

[00:48:33] I stink and I'm losing everybody.

[00:48:34] I even thought about like, if this gets like really, really bad, I'm just going to stop

[00:48:38] doing it because I'm not going to sit here and watch this thing sink and crash and burn

[00:48:43] because the podcast is going down.

[00:48:45] And, but then I listened to, I forget who it was.

[00:48:47] I wish I could give you credit, but I didn't know about you yet.

[00:48:49] I listened to somebody and they were like, go look at your followers on, on Spotify

[00:48:53] and Apple podcast connect, not just Libsyn.

[00:48:56] Look at your followers and listeners and see if those have gone down.

[00:49:00] And all those were still going up.

[00:49:02] And I'm like, wait a second.

[00:49:03] I'm, I am gaining.

[00:49:05] I, this is just aftermath of the Apple thing is going down and down.

[00:49:09] So I was kind of, you know, kind of dealing with that.

[00:49:12] Chris, forgive me.

[00:49:13] I'm still getting over cold.

[00:49:14] What was your original question?

[00:49:16] Well, I know that you had a lot of those other, like, you know, advertisers and, and you

[00:49:21] had the small, you had the, you had the regular, yeah.

[00:49:23] The regular.

[00:49:24] Yeah.

[00:49:24] The ones that, that you don't actually create the sponsors that you don't like, not the

[00:49:27] ad, like the most, the top, the top dog, I guess, of the advertisers in the podcasting

[00:49:32] would be the ones that you physically read on the air.

[00:49:34] Like the actual, like the one I do for Riverside and things like that.

[00:49:37] And then, and then down below the very bottom would be the ones that are already like the

[00:49:41] radio commercials, I would call them.

[00:49:43] They're just split, throw it in there in random places throughout your podcast.

[00:49:46] There's like the radio commercial ones.

[00:49:48] I see a lot of podcasters throw those in there and you have them too.

[00:49:51] How are they working out for you as, as a podcaster?

[00:49:54] Like I, you said the numbers were going, they were up, they're going back down.

[00:49:58] But then the numbers you said actually for the, for the payout on those doubled.

[00:50:03] You're trying to figure out why.

[00:50:05] Yeah.

[00:50:05] Yeah.

[00:50:06] So I use Libsyn advertised cast, I think, or they bought advertised cast.

[00:50:10] Now it's Libsyn ads.

[00:50:11] Yes.

[00:50:11] Yeah.

[00:50:11] Yeah.

[00:50:13] So it was like the three to $500 range, which was like, believe me, phenomenal to me.

[00:50:18] It's like, I'm flapping my gums for four episodes a month.

[00:50:21] I never thought this podcast would make a dime.

[00:50:22] I'm making three to $500.

[00:50:24] That's incredible by itself.

[00:50:26] That's a lot too.

[00:50:27] Yeah.

[00:50:27] Yeah.

[00:50:27] I thought it was amazing.

[00:50:29] So it's a car payment, you know?

[00:50:31] So it's, that was happening like one month.

[00:50:33] It'd be like two 46.

[00:50:34] And then another one would be like 472.

[00:50:37] And they tell you the impressions.

[00:50:38] It'd be like, and sometimes it doesn't line up.

[00:50:40] They'll be like 120,000 impressions.

[00:50:42] Cause I'm doing, I think they're counting each ad I put in and I do beginning, middle,

[00:50:46] end.

[00:50:47] So that's three per episode.

[00:50:49] So it's three impressions per episode.

[00:50:52] So it started to kind of just stick around three to 500.

[00:50:57] Sometimes a low of 246, 245.

[00:50:59] I remember those numbers.

[00:51:00] Cause I was like, what happened?

[00:51:01] But sometimes the ad impressions were higher and I got paid less.

[00:51:05] So I was like, what is their formula?

[00:51:08] Like I, I don't get it.

[00:51:09] So then the last two months, it was $730, like 722 and 730.

[00:51:16] And I looked at it and I had 122,000 Adam, not one twenties.

[00:51:21] And I got paid over $700 each month for those.

[00:51:25] And I looked back and I wanted to see, well, what was the most I got paid ever before this?

[00:51:29] And the most I got paid ever before this was like 620.

[00:51:32] And it was for like a hundred and 105 or 103 impressions.

[00:51:39] So I don't know what they're doing or why they're paying me.

[00:51:42] Like, it seems like a lot more for impressions, but they are, I don't know if they change things

[00:51:47] up or, or if my, maybe my downloads have, maybe there's more, I don't know if they actually

[00:51:53] listen and see how much people listen and people are listening to the ads longer.

[00:51:57] Like, I don't know what formula they use or what technology can they only tell if someone

[00:52:02] listens to the episode or can they actually, does it, does a podcast episode report back?

[00:52:06] Hey, they listened to the pre-roll and the whole mid-roll.

[00:52:09] Is that worth more?

[00:52:10] Are they, are they inserting the ads or you, are you, okay.

[00:52:14] How does the ad physically get into your podcast?

[00:52:17] I pick where it goes.

[00:52:19] So they give you your waveform when you're editing your podcast and I go beginning and,

[00:52:24] and then I find a spot in the middle, that's like a good time to have an ad.

[00:52:28] And excuse me, I put it in, I choose to put it in there.

[00:52:31] I have no control on what it is, but I mean, it could be an anti-cop ad.

[00:52:35] I have no control.

[00:52:37] It goes right in the middle.

[00:52:38] And I, I told my audience that before, cause they'd be like, Hey, there was an ad on your

[00:52:42] podcast that like actually aligns with values of your listeners.

[00:52:47] Interesting.

[00:52:47] And I've heard stories about that too, where like, yeah, your podcast would be with something

[00:52:51] like your pot, you know, I mean, you could have a true crime podcast and because something

[00:52:55] completely different, like, you know, I don't know, maybe about a Barbie toy or something.

[00:53:00] I have no idea.

[00:53:01] But, but so, but I thought you could pick like the type of ads that you want in those programmatic

[00:53:07] things.

[00:53:07] I've never done it, but, but I guess it sounds like from what you're telling me, you don't

[00:53:11] have a choice of that.

[00:53:12] Just, I'm happy to just throw whatever in there.

[00:53:14] Yeah.

[00:53:15] And they'll do local stuff too.

[00:53:16] Like to be a local insurance agency from Massachusetts.

[00:53:19] I think they do by locality a little bit.

[00:53:21] Yeah.

[00:53:22] They know, they know, they know exactly where the episodes are being played in or downloaded

[00:53:26] in or whatever.

[00:53:27] But with VPNs and things like that, it can be a little tricky these days, but I've heard

[00:53:30] that too.

[00:53:30] I've heard a podcast once and, and they're playing a local commercial to me.

[00:53:34] I'm like, what?

[00:53:35] How's that, how's that work?

[00:53:37] You know?

[00:53:37] Yeah.

[00:53:37] Bob's hardware story.

[00:53:38] You're like, I know Bob.

[00:53:39] Right.

[00:53:40] Like, well, how's this podcast that's based in like Texas?

[00:53:43] How, how, how are they do commercial for me?

[00:53:46] But it's all this programmatic stuff.

[00:53:47] It's all based on location.

[00:53:49] They figure all that stuff out, which actually works out great.

[00:53:51] If you're doing like, like standup events, like you were a standup comedian and you're

[00:53:54] like doing like a coming soon to your town, you commercial for the town and you can have

[00:53:59] it set to that town, wherever that town is.

[00:54:02] Oh yeah.

[00:54:02] For the person buying the ad.

[00:54:04] Yeah, definitely.

[00:54:05] Yeah.

[00:54:05] Say like, I'm going to be in that town this weekend or whatever.

[00:54:08] So only episodes that are downloaded in that town play that ad.

[00:54:11] And that way they, they hear it and it makes sense.

[00:54:15] Well, you're doing a fantastic job with your podcast, man.

[00:54:17] Like you are like literally crushing on, you're making money, you have lots of downloads.

[00:54:21] That's the thing too.

[00:54:22] Somebody's podcasters, I swear to God, they say like, dude, if I only get, you know, 2000

[00:54:26] downloads an episode or $5,000 or $10,000.

[00:54:29] And I would say to them, then what?

[00:54:31] Like, what are you going to do with those downloads?

[00:54:33] Having numbers are great, but if you don't plan for it, then what are you going to do?

[00:54:37] So when it comes to your podcast, at what point did you realize you could actually make some

[00:54:42] money with this thing?

[00:54:44] I think when I have a Patreon too, which I hesitated to start for years.

[00:54:50] Cause I, like I said, I consume a lot of podcast strategy stuff and the kind of the vibe I

[00:54:56] was getting was like, don't be one of these people that like starts a podcast in a Patreon

[00:54:59] with it.

[00:54:59] Cause you're just going to be like disappointed because the love someone has to have for your

[00:55:04] show to actually monthly give you money is not going to be there for a long time.

[00:55:09] Don't just be like podcast one, here's my Patreon.

[00:55:12] Right.

[00:55:13] Right.

[00:55:13] Who would do that?

[00:55:14] Nobody will do that.

[00:55:15] So I waited like four years to start the Patreon and it was, it was pretty slow to start, but

[00:55:23] now it's up to, I get like 540 a month from that.

[00:55:27] Wow.

[00:55:27] And I get now the last two months I've been getting 700 from the advertised cast.

[00:55:35] And so when I look at them together now, the last few months, I'm like, wow, that's like

[00:55:40] almost a mortgage payment.

[00:55:41] That's crazy.

[00:55:42] That's great, dude.

[00:55:44] That's amazing, man.

[00:55:45] Yeah.

[00:55:46] I'm so happy with it.

[00:55:47] That is incredible.

[00:55:48] I know that if you can make, well, if you can at least make what you spent into the podcast

[00:55:52] back, I think that's a success story on its own, but to make that and then some that's,

[00:55:57] that's incredible.

[00:55:58] Do you ever thought about, I know he's probably too early now to actually quit your regular

[00:56:03] job and to go podcasting full time?

[00:56:05] Brother, I think about it every day, every day, my man.

[00:56:10] I did actually, you know, it's funny.

[00:56:12] There's been so many blips where like, believe it or not, because of the podcast, I got on

[00:56:17] TV.

[00:56:17] I did a full season on Discovery ID for a show called Exposed Naked Crimes.

[00:56:24] Oh, I know that.

[00:56:25] I know that.

[00:56:25] I've seen that series.

[00:56:27] Yeah.

[00:56:28] It's a glorified clip show.

[00:56:29] But anyways, they chose me to be on it.

[00:56:31] And of course, my chief right away is like, oh, you got the podcast.

[00:56:34] Now you're going on TV.

[00:56:35] Like before you know it, you're going to be, you know, you're going to be doing, you're

[00:56:39] going to get enough money and you won't be a cop anymore.

[00:56:41] And again, I'm like, I would never do that in my head.

[00:56:43] I'm like, oh, I would do that so fast.

[00:56:45] Oh, I'm the same way too, man.

[00:56:46] I'm the same way too.

[00:56:47] But now, now at what point did you, do you automatically tell your, your chief and all

[00:56:53] your, everyone you work with, do you tell them that you had a podcast or do you kind

[00:56:56] of keep it secret for a while?

[00:56:58] Then tell them.

[00:56:59] Yeah.

[00:57:00] I kind of kept it secret for a while, but at the same time I didn't hide it.

[00:57:03] Like I have in my chief now, we actually joined as a patron supporter for a year, you know?

[00:57:07] So that's the best endorsement you can get and be like, well, he supported it.

[00:57:13] So I don't really talk about that.

[00:57:15] I have buddies in the field that are like huge fans of it and they will tell more people

[00:57:19] than I tell.

[00:57:20] I don't hardly, I might like, if I have a road work detail with like a bunch of construction

[00:57:23] guys, I might give them some TPS stickers and be like, Hey, I got a podcast.

[00:57:27] So, you know, they're, they always think it's neat, you know, but I don't, I don't

[00:57:31] talk about it that much at work at this point, everybody knows, but they might ask like, Hey,

[00:57:36] you got any interesting guests coming up or like, Oh, I can't believe you had so-and-so

[00:57:38] on, but I did.

[00:57:40] It was a slow burn.

[00:57:41] I didn't go right in and start with it.

[00:57:43] I kind of just, I let it kind of come up slowly.

[00:57:48] You know what I mean?

[00:57:49] Right.

[00:57:50] Like with my podcast, I, people, everybody knows I have a podcast, everybody in the corporate

[00:57:54] space of my company, they know I have a podcast.

[00:57:56] Yeah.

[00:57:56] I work for a major company and, and they all kind of know and that kind of stuff.

[00:58:01] And I don't try to like, like, I don't mention the name of the company I work for on the podcast

[00:58:05] or other podcasts, things like that.

[00:58:06] Can I keep that secret?

[00:58:07] Everybody kind of knows what kind of job I do, but I try to keep that stuff, you know,

[00:58:11] it's kind of secret and not secret, but kind of keep it separated, I guess.

[00:58:13] Kind of separate like church and state kind of keep things separated or whatever, you

[00:58:17] know, that's kind of the way when it comes to the podcast.

[00:58:20] Well, Steve, man, this has been, been so fantastic, man, having you on the show today,

[00:58:23] man, I really appreciate you and your show and your amazing stuff you do and, and being

[00:58:28] such a great, like, like beacon of hope for all us regular indie podcasters out here,

[00:58:32] man.

[00:58:32] It's been so great, man.

[00:58:34] Oh, thanks, Brad.

[00:58:35] It was an honor.

[00:58:36] I'm a fan, brother.

[00:58:36] I'm a fan of Podtastic.

[00:58:38] So it was an honor to come on.

[00:58:39] Yeah, this is great.

[00:58:40] So where can everybody find out all about your podcast and all your wonderful stuff?

[00:58:44] There is a website, thingspolicec.com.

[00:58:47] If you go down there and scroll down, all the episodes are right there in a little window.

[00:58:50] It's on, I'm on Instagram at thingspolicec.

[00:58:53] And of course, every podcast platform you can think of, I think, you know, Apple, Spotify,

[00:59:00] iHeartRadio, Overcast, all those wonderful podcast apps I'm on there.

[00:59:03] So, and if you know, reach out and say hi, if you come over from Podtastic, love to hear

[00:59:07] from you.

[00:59:09] Wow.

[00:59:09] That was great.

[00:59:11] Thanks, Steve.

[00:59:11] Thanks for stopping by today, man.

[00:59:13] I really do appreciate you and your podcast and all your great words of wisdom and having

[00:59:18] a super niche podcast, something you can't hear anywhere else, giving stories that you

[00:59:24] really can't hear anywhere else.

[00:59:26] That is what it's all about.

[00:59:27] And I've said this once and I'll say it again, having really unique stories that you can share

[00:59:33] on your podcast.

[00:59:35] Hey, if you're willing to share them, I know some, like some personal stories we don't want

[00:59:39] to share with everybody, you know what I'm saying.

[00:59:41] But if you have really good stories that you can't hear anywhere else, it makes for a really

[00:59:49] good podcast, even if it's a really niche down podcast.

[00:59:53] And Steve is a major, really good example of that happening with his podcast, making killer

[01:00:01] money, getting amazing numbers of downloads.

[01:00:03] People are loving it with lots of reviews.

[01:00:06] Last I checked, he had over like over 1000 reviews on Apple.

[01:00:11] That's incredible.

[01:00:12] So if you're thinking that your small little podcast isn't amount to nothing because, because

[01:00:18] you're not broad, you don't talk about, you know, everything and anything under the sun

[01:00:22] like some of the bigger name shows do.

[01:00:25] But there's power with having a niche podcast, especially as an indie podcaster.

[01:00:31] And I hope that this year, 2025, it's going to be your year to take your podcast to the next

[01:00:39] level.

[01:00:40] And until that happens, I am here for you on your podcasting journey.

[01:00:45] And until next time, happy podcasting.